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All of which says "stylised and arty" and is a look much used in The Wire and similar publications. I'm kind of irritated by this. TA are legendary for super-e

All of which says "stylised and arty" and is a look much used in The Wire and similar publications. I'm kind of irritated by this. TA are legendary for super-expensive toy-like products that must have insanely high margins. So somehow the "I was never into money (but now I collect antique synthesizers with four or five figure price tags)" line doesn't ring entirely true.

dole 4y ago
“Shit ain’t broke unless you’re broke, that’s some real shit.” - Lil Yachty
micromacrofoot 4y ago
I get it though, there are lots of expensive things I’d like to collect, but it’s about the object and not what it’s worth. If they were cheap I’d still want to collect them. You see it a lot in art, some people collect only as an investment vehicle - others buy what they like without regard for future returns. Ones mostly about the money.
smoldesu 4y ago
And people fall for it. It's crazy how many people blindly buy into TE's "homestyle" marketing like they're some hibrow synth company. The OP-1 tickles every American's "Product Cortex" in their brain though, immediately associating brutalist design and Corinthian leather with quality engineering. It doesn't matter if we're not the target audience, we just want to spend money on pretty things that make us feel good. The OP-1 is like the rich man's fidget spinner, I see it on someone's desk and assume that they have too much time and money on their hands. Just goes to show that you can take pretty much anything, market it to relatively affluent and bored tech workers and make a killing.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  The OP-1 is an instrument though, it seems like a pretty amazing instrument for creativity for those that can use it. And most instruments are more expensive than it..
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    I've tried a lot of grooveboxes in my time, and the OP-1 is one of the only instruments I've ever seen that has worse value-per-dollar than the DSI Tempest. Very few instruments are expensive and useless enough to justify this; the OP-1 is solidly among them though. All I'll say is that you should reserve your judgement until you've tried some competing products. The Playmobil laptop looks like a great way to do your Word documents until you try a Dell or Apple machine.
    - kzrdude 4y ago
      Which one would you recommend? For an easy to use low end starting point.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        I'd probably recommend the Model: Samples if you're interested in sampling, or the Novation Circuit if you want to focus on synthesis. The Model: Samples in particular is great - it's an adaptation of Elektron's more expensive Digitakt that puts the core featureset in a more focused box. It would probably be my sub-$400 desert-island groovebox choice. Edit: it's worth noting that both of these systems are sequencers, not tape recorders. I consider that a benefit (much longer record times) but if you want a multitrack recorder then you should look elsewhere (maybe a 4iXo DAC?)
  - ilyt 4y ago
    OP-1 owner eh ? Sure it's cheap if you compare it to Stradivarius, but if you use instruments in same type ("a CPU feeding ADC/DAC with some knobs and buttons") it is one of most expensive one in category. OP-1 field (the only version they sell) is 2000 EUR. That's top end of synth world and you usually get more knobs and keys with that. That's the price of Korg/Roland/Yamaha workstation-level keyboards. Do NOT try to compare it on price with anything, it will always look like a bad joke. Subjective, might be worth to you etc.
- psychomugs 4y ago
  So... you judge character based on appearances? No other gear company has tackled the all-in-one synth-sequencer-4trackrecorder-groovebox that is the OP-1 in the decade since its release. TE not capitalizing on this would be financially naive.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    I am pretty sure real professionals use carefully configured personal computers with keyboards plugged in.
    - psychomugs 4y ago
      The same as how professional photographers use expensive 'real' capital-C Cameras with interchangeable capital-L Lenses but still carry pocketable point-and-shoots for 'fun,' e.g. Ricoh GR, Fuji X100. Tools should be enjoyable to use, which these gadgets offer in spades.
      - whatshisface 4y ago
        But in this case, the just-for-fun pocket device is more often expensive than the capital-K Keyboard.
        psychomugs 4y ago
        Both of the cameras I listed are more expensive than many perfectly capable interchangeable-lens cameras (Ricoh GR ~$1000, Fuji X100 ~$1300 [currently prone to scalping for even more]), but still rightfully warrant the demand because of their usability.
        smoldesu 4y ago
        Which is fine. If professionals collect them for novelty, nothing is lost. If a beginner were to spend all their money on a novelty camera instead of an interchangeable lens model, then it does become a bit of a waste. Almost like they bought into the hype because of the end-product or social sex-appeal, a phenomenon that ties neatly into TE's marketing.
- sramsay 4y ago
  They’re the Sharper Image of audio.
- strawpeople 4y ago
  > I see it on someone's desk and assume that they have too much time and money on their hands. Surely it’s suited to someone who is price insensitive but has too little time to take music seriously. Why shouldn’t there be a product aimed at such people? > Just goes to show that you can take pretty much anything, market it to relatively affluent and bored tech workers and make a killing. This makes no sense. The op-1 is a very unusual product. If it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be discussing it.
wyager 4y ago
Seriously, comparing my OP-1 ($1400, made in china, buggy, bad QC, small and simple hardware) with my Analog Rytm mkII ($1700, made in sweden, reliable, impeccable QC, larger and much more complex hardware) - the margins on these TE gizmos must be insane.
- xdfgh1112 4y ago
  There was nothing like the OP-1 at release and still nothing like it now. It is overpriced, but they arguably deserve it. They have the Apple business model.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    I guess they know their market because the follow up OP-1 Field is even more expensive
  - wyager 4y ago
    By what criteria is there "nothing like" it? Of course you can define "like" in a way to make this true, but I'm curious what you think are the salient differentiators.
    - xdfgh1112 4y ago
      Portable all in one groovebox with a keyboard. Even ignoring the keyboard, the creativity and fun of the OP-1s tape and synthesis modes, things like the gyro and FM radio, are fairly unique. There is a reason it is so successful.
      - wyager 4y ago
        > There is a reason it is so successful. Yes, because it managed to capture a self-sustaining hype cycle powered by customers who for the most part don't really know what they're buying. It's more of a status item than an actually fun or useful musical instrument, IMO. This thread reminds me, I need to sell mine.
hnhg 4y ago
It makes sense, because he is also a co-founder of Acne Studios[1], and they are about pretty high margins on unspectacular but nice clothing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acne_Studios https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acne_Studios
spamizbad 4y ago
Unfortunately, All low volume boutique electronic musical instruments have “insanely high margins”. The less boutique normal stuff made by Yamaha and Roland is likely priced at 4x the BOM - and they are able to get better deals from distributors than TE can. You can’t sustain a business any other way. Consumer electronics are cheap because they can sell millions worldwide. Stuff like the OP1 sells in the 10s of thousands so they’re not getting any special deals from their vendors either.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  It's worth drawing a line between handmade instruments and mass-produced machines though. Yes, Roland and Yamaha also have high margins, but they also face steep competition from low-margin companies like Behringer who are effectively wrecking their business model. Companies like Moog were safe because their demand will always be the same, but boutique vendors everywhere are closing up shop. I'll agree that it's a zero-sum game either way, but it ends with the high-margin vendors getting undercut. Something we could have avoided if they worked to make their product cheaper instead of working to make it more expensive.
  - strawpeople 4y ago
    > Behringer who are effectively wrecking their business model By making knock offs without needing to do the R&D and product-market fit work for themselves. Why isn’t there a knock-off of the op-1?
- ilyt 4y ago
  If you compare them with other competitors in the space the likes of Elektron or Polyend give you more hardware for less. They make Elektron look outright cheap in comparison in fact. > Stuff like the OP1 sells in the 10s of thousands so they’re not getting any special deals from their vendors either. 10s of thousands is enough to get the economies of scale to start working. Even for stuff like custom LCDs for pocket operators. Yes niche costs few times to make than truly mass market as you still need to pay yourself a salary and not just "earn good profit on unit", but on the other side the only reason OP-1 is niche it is because say OP-1 is just that expensive that most people look at it and go "okay, I could get this and this and that and still have some money left over". They know hipsters will buy it and have no real reason to try to sell more units for less money, as that devalues the eliteness of it.
BenGosub 4y ago
You definitely got a point. I would say that they deserve the money because people love their products and are happy to pay the premium. I also think that as much as it is a cliche "never being into money" it's an important aspect of success, because you can either be driven by profit at one end of the spectrum and a genuine passion for a great product on the other. If you do succeed and become wealthy, then it doesn't matter if a synth is $500 or $50'000, you can have it.

dole 4y ago

“Shit ain’t broke unless you’re broke, that’s some real shit.” - Lil Yachty

micromacrofoot 4y ago

I get it though, there are lots of expensive things I’d like to collect, but it’s about the object and not what it’s worth. If they were cheap I’d still want to collect them. You see it a lot in art, some people collect only as an investment vehicle - others buy what they like without regard for future returns. Ones mostly about the money.

smoldesu 4y ago

And people fall for it. It's crazy how many people blindly buy into TE's "homestyle" marketing like they're some hibrow synth company. The OP-1 tickles every American's "Product Cortex" in their brain though, immediately associating brutalist design and Corinthian leather with quality engineering. It doesn't matter if we're not the target audience, we just want to spend money on pretty things that make us feel good. The OP-1 is like the rich man's fidget spinner, I see it on someone's desk and assume that they have too much time and money on their hands. Just goes to show that you can take pretty much anything, market it to relatively affluent and bored tech workers and make a killing.

kzrdude 4y ago
The OP-1 is an instrument though, it seems like a pretty amazing instrument for creativity for those that can use it. And most instruments are more expensive than it..
- smoldesu 4y ago
  I've tried a lot of grooveboxes in my time, and the OP-1 is one of the only instruments I've ever seen that has worse value-per-dollar than the DSI Tempest. Very few instruments are expensive and useless enough to justify this; the OP-1 is solidly among them though. All I'll say is that you should reserve your judgement until you've tried some competing products. The Playmobil laptop looks like a great way to do your Word documents until you try a Dell or Apple machine.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    Which one would you recommend? For an easy to use low end starting point.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      I'd probably recommend the Model: Samples if you're interested in sampling, or the Novation Circuit if you want to focus on synthesis. The Model: Samples in particular is great - it's an adaptation of Elektron's more expensive Digitakt that puts the core featureset in a more focused box. It would probably be my sub-$400 desert-island groovebox choice. Edit: it's worth noting that both of these systems are sequencers, not tape recorders. I consider that a benefit (much longer record times) but if you want a multitrack recorder then you should look elsewhere (maybe a 4iXo DAC?)
- ilyt 4y ago
  OP-1 owner eh ? Sure it's cheap if you compare it to Stradivarius, but if you use instruments in same type ("a CPU feeding ADC/DAC with some knobs and buttons") it is one of most expensive one in category. OP-1 field (the only version they sell) is 2000 EUR. That's top end of synth world and you usually get more knobs and keys with that. That's the price of Korg/Roland/Yamaha workstation-level keyboards. Do NOT try to compare it on price with anything, it will always look like a bad joke. Subjective, might be worth to you etc.
psychomugs 4y ago
So... you judge character based on appearances? No other gear company has tackled the all-in-one synth-sequencer-4trackrecorder-groovebox that is the OP-1 in the decade since its release. TE not capitalizing on this would be financially naive.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  I am pretty sure real professionals use carefully configured personal computers with keyboards plugged in.
  - psychomugs 4y ago
    The same as how professional photographers use expensive 'real' capital-C Cameras with interchangeable capital-L Lenses but still carry pocketable point-and-shoots for 'fun,' e.g. Ricoh GR, Fuji X100. Tools should be enjoyable to use, which these gadgets offer in spades.
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      But in this case, the just-for-fun pocket device is more often expensive than the capital-K Keyboard.
      - psychomugs 4y ago
        Both of the cameras I listed are more expensive than many perfectly capable interchangeable-lens cameras (Ricoh GR ~$1000, Fuji X100 ~$1300 [currently prone to scalping for even more]), but still rightfully warrant the demand because of their usability.
        smoldesu 4y ago
        Which is fine. If professionals collect them for novelty, nothing is lost. If a beginner were to spend all their money on a novelty camera instead of an interchangeable lens model, then it does become a bit of a waste. Almost like they bought into the hype because of the end-product or social sex-appeal, a phenomenon that ties neatly into TE's marketing.
sramsay 4y ago
They’re the Sharper Image of audio.
strawpeople 4y ago
> I see it on someone's desk and assume that they have too much time and money on their hands. Surely it’s suited to someone who is price insensitive but has too little time to take music seriously. Why shouldn’t there be a product aimed at such people? > Just goes to show that you can take pretty much anything, market it to relatively affluent and bored tech workers and make a killing. This makes no sense. The op-1 is a very unusual product. If it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be discussing it.

wyager 4y ago

Seriously, comparing my OP-1 ($1400, made in china, buggy, bad QC, small and simple hardware) with my Analog Rytm mkII ($1700, made in sweden, reliable, impeccable QC, larger and much more complex hardware) - the margins on these TE gizmos must be insane.

xdfgh1112 4y ago
There was nothing like the OP-1 at release and still nothing like it now. It is overpriced, but they arguably deserve it. They have the Apple business model.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  I guess they know their market because the follow up OP-1 Field is even more expensive
- wyager 4y ago
  By what criteria is there "nothing like" it? Of course you can define "like" in a way to make this true, but I'm curious what you think are the salient differentiators.
  - xdfgh1112 4y ago
    Portable all in one groovebox with a keyboard. Even ignoring the keyboard, the creativity and fun of the OP-1s tape and synthesis modes, things like the gyro and FM radio, are fairly unique. There is a reason it is so successful.
    - wyager 4y ago
      > There is a reason it is so successful. Yes, because it managed to capture a self-sustaining hype cycle powered by customers who for the most part don't really know what they're buying. It's more of a status item than an actually fun or useful musical instrument, IMO. This thread reminds me, I need to sell mine.

hnhg 4y ago

It makes sense, because he is also a co-founder of Acne Studios[1], and they are about pretty high margins on unspectacular but nice clothing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acne_Studios https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acne_Studios

spamizbad 4y ago

Unfortunately, All low volume boutique electronic musical instruments have “insanely high margins”. The less boutique normal stuff made by Yamaha and Roland is likely priced at 4x the BOM - and they are able to get better deals from distributors than TE can. You can’t sustain a business any other way. Consumer electronics are cheap because they can sell millions worldwide. Stuff like the OP1 sells in the 10s of thousands so they’re not getting any special deals from their vendors either.

smoldesu 4y ago
It's worth drawing a line between handmade instruments and mass-produced machines though. Yes, Roland and Yamaha also have high margins, but they also face steep competition from low-margin companies like Behringer who are effectively wrecking their business model. Companies like Moog were safe because their demand will always be the same, but boutique vendors everywhere are closing up shop. I'll agree that it's a zero-sum game either way, but it ends with the high-margin vendors getting undercut. Something we could have avoided if they worked to make their product cheaper instead of working to make it more expensive.
- strawpeople 4y ago
  > Behringer who are effectively wrecking their business model By making knock offs without needing to do the R&D and product-market fit work for themselves. Why isn’t there a knock-off of the op-1?
ilyt 4y ago
If you compare them with other competitors in the space the likes of Elektron or Polyend give you more hardware for less. They make Elektron look outright cheap in comparison in fact. > Stuff like the OP1 sells in the 10s of thousands so they’re not getting any special deals from their vendors either. 10s of thousands is enough to get the economies of scale to start working. Even for stuff like custom LCDs for pocket operators. Yes niche costs few times to make than truly mass market as you still need to pay yourself a salary and not just "earn good profit on unit", but on the other side the only reason OP-1 is niche it is because say OP-1 is just that expensive that most people look at it and go "okay, I could get this and this and that and still have some money left over". They know hipsters will buy it and have no real reason to try to sell more units for less money, as that devalues the eliteness of it.

BenGosub 4y ago

You definitely got a point. I would say that they deserve the money because people love their products and are happy to pay the premium. I also think that as much as it is a cliche "never being into money" it's an important aspect of success, because you can either be driven by profit at one end of the spectrum and a genuine passion for a great product on the other. If you do succeed and become wealthy, then it doesn't matter if a synth is $500 or $50'000, you can have it.