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Write a multithreaded program guaranteed to have no data races in C and tell me that C is simple. C _looks_ simple, deceivingly so. As soon as you need to deal

Write a multithreaded program guaranteed to have no data races in C and tell me that C is simple. C _looks_ simple, deceivingly so. As soon as you need to deal with a large project in a corporate environment on a code base aged in double digit years you don't think it's simple anymore. C is incredibly complex, unmanageably so.

waiseristy 4y ago
I would be interested to see someone write a program in any language (other than ones specifically designed to combat this, rust…) using threading and guarantee it to be data/race safe. But, I’m not arguing with you. I honestly think that any corporate codebase after double digit years (and seven figure LoC) turns into a completely unmanageable mess. If it isn’t, it’s because of the team culture and pure rigor. Not the language
- mlindner 4y ago
  > I would be interested to see someone write a program in any language (other than ones specifically designed to combat this, rust…) using threading and guarantee it to be data/race safe. I don't limit my statement to just C. The topic was C however so I mentioned C.
  - waiseristy 4y ago
    I am limiting it to just C though, because I’m responding to an article about the sticking power of C. I’ve worked in a lot of massive and unmaintainable codebases, and I’ve always had the most fun untangling C ones. I don’t know exactly why, but I suspect it’s because at their core they are always plain ol’ simple C.
  - simplotek 4y ago
    > I don't limit my statement to just C. The topic was C however so I mentioned C. Your comment reads like a red herring though. You're not actually trying to argue that C makes thing easier or hard. Your red herring only means that hard problems affecting all languages aren't magically turned into non-issues in C. You can still write a C program that uses threading and is as safe as any other language and end up being a far simpler project, but that means nothing because the subject is still hard. And what would that actually say about C, let alone refute?
mpweiher 4y ago
C is simple. Writing C is simple. Writing multithreaded programs is difficult and C doesn't help you with it.
- sacnoradhq 4y ago
  Flame bait. Haha. Let's not argue about religions online. The mullahs will arrest us for improper use of void.
im3w1l 4y ago
You are confusing two different things, the simplicity of C itself, and the simplicity of using C for a certain problem.
ihatepython 4y ago
It's never really necessary to write a multithreaded program. It's probably better to come up with a better architecture and communication method. In a corporate environment, just use Java or C# or whatever. It's a corporate environment, probably not that interesting. C is not necessary.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  It isn't because most of us reach out to C++, when needed to step out of Java and C# among others. Even modern drivers for Apple, Google and Microsoft platforms are written in C++.
- mlindner 4y ago
  All that network hardware in use all over the internet was designed in corporate environments. I'd bet they almost all use C.
- tomcam 4y ago
  > It's never really necessary to write a multithreaded program. It's probably better to come up with a better architecture and communication method. Mind expanding on that?
snickerbockers 4y ago
>As soon as you need to deal with a large project in a corporate environment on a code base aged in double digit years you don't think it's simple anymore. I've done this before, never felt like C wasn't simple.
- mlindner 4y ago
  How big was the project and how many people were maintaining it? And were the people maintaining it the same people who started it? Perhaps I should have included a statement about coming in to work on a project that was already double digits old when you started working on it.
  - snickerbockers 4y ago
    Not sure how many people worked on it but it was forked from FreeBSD 16 years before i joined and none of the original devs were there.
rootw0rm 4y ago
i have a C threaded producer that lives in a target process and exports data to a C# consumer in another process. (locks are shared between processes according to data in a predetermined memory segment. also, add a custom high bandwidth IPC protocol to that spec) ...it works beautifully. i did port the C to a mix of unsafe C# + atomic Windows intrinsics, but it's surprisingly robust. I think your main argument here is that large C code bases can easily become unwieldy, and I agree with you on that. However, simple multithreading in C is simple. It's not a terribly difficult problem to solve.
jstimpfle 4y ago
Classic confusion of simple vs easy.
- smitty1e 4y ago
  Everything us easy when you know how to do it. But that learning curve...
  - jstimpfle 4y ago
    Nobody said it's easy. Programming is hard. The statement is that the language is _simple_.
    - Ygg2 4y ago
      Nobody mentioned programming. And hard/easy is a relative term. My easy != your easy. Sharpened rock is a simple tool. Versatile too, but try using it to make a sculpture and it's going to be hard, very hard. Especially if you never used it extensively. C is a simple language. No doubt about it. But doing multi-threading and memory safety in C is like trying to build a 100m tall structure using nothing but a sharpened rock. Possible but, why would you. Java is a complex language. Lots of complexity. Classes, annotations, async, System.out and so on. But multi-threaded and memory safe (memory leaks allowed ofc) programs is as simple as just not using Java's array of unsafe tooling.
      - jstimpfle 4y ago
        Sure, there is no real disagreement, it's only a confusion about terminology. > But multi-threaded and memory safe (memory leaks allowed ofc) programs is as simple as just not using Java's array of unsafe tooling. as _easy_ as just not... "Complex" is the opposite of "simple". "Easy" is the opposite of "hard".
sacnoradhq 4y ago
libuv enters the chat.
josefx 4y ago
> Write a multithreaded program guaranteed to have no data races in C and tell me that C is simple. I could port most of the multiprocessing based python scripts I have lying around to C without a problem. Multithreading can be easy when you have a few rules in place what threads can read/modify data at a specific point in time.
- jen20 4y ago
  It’s even easier when a compiler enforces those rules.

waiseristy 4y ago

I would be interested to see someone write a program in any language (other than ones specifically designed to combat this, rust…) using threading and guarantee it to be data/race safe. But, I’m not arguing with you. I honestly think that any corporate codebase after double digit years (and seven figure LoC) turns into a completely unmanageable mess. If it isn’t, it’s because of the team culture and pure rigor. Not the language

mlindner 4y ago
> I would be interested to see someone write a program in any language (other than ones specifically designed to combat this, rust…) using threading and guarantee it to be data/race safe. I don't limit my statement to just C. The topic was C however so I mentioned C.
- waiseristy 4y ago
  I am limiting it to just C though, because I’m responding to an article about the sticking power of C. I’ve worked in a lot of massive and unmaintainable codebases, and I’ve always had the most fun untangling C ones. I don’t know exactly why, but I suspect it’s because at their core they are always plain ol’ simple C.
- simplotek 4y ago
  > I don't limit my statement to just C. The topic was C however so I mentioned C. Your comment reads like a red herring though. You're not actually trying to argue that C makes thing easier or hard. Your red herring only means that hard problems affecting all languages aren't magically turned into non-issues in C. You can still write a C program that uses threading and is as safe as any other language and end up being a far simpler project, but that means nothing because the subject is still hard. And what would that actually say about C, let alone refute?

mpweiher 4y ago

C is simple. Writing C is simple. Writing multithreaded programs is difficult and C doesn't help you with it.

sacnoradhq 4y ago
Flame bait. Haha. Let's not argue about religions online. The mullahs will arrest us for improper use of void.

im3w1l 4y ago

You are confusing two different things, the simplicity of C itself, and the simplicity of using C for a certain problem.

ihatepython 4y ago

It's never really necessary to write a multithreaded program. It's probably better to come up with a better architecture and communication method. In a corporate environment, just use Java or C# or whatever. It's a corporate environment, probably not that interesting. C is not necessary.

pjmlp 4y ago
It isn't because most of us reach out to C++, when needed to step out of Java and C# among others. Even modern drivers for Apple, Google and Microsoft platforms are written in C++.
mlindner 4y ago
All that network hardware in use all over the internet was designed in corporate environments. I'd bet they almost all use C.
tomcam 4y ago
> It's never really necessary to write a multithreaded program. It's probably better to come up with a better architecture and communication method. Mind expanding on that?

snickerbockers 4y ago

>As soon as you need to deal with a large project in a corporate environment on a code base aged in double digit years you don't think it's simple anymore. I've done this before, never felt like C wasn't simple.

mlindner 4y ago
How big was the project and how many people were maintaining it? And were the people maintaining it the same people who started it? Perhaps I should have included a statement about coming in to work on a project that was already double digits old when you started working on it.
- snickerbockers 4y ago
  Not sure how many people worked on it but it was forked from FreeBSD 16 years before i joined and none of the original devs were there.

rootw0rm 4y ago

i have a C threaded producer that lives in a target process and exports data to a C# consumer in another process. (locks are shared between processes according to data in a predetermined memory segment. also, add a custom high bandwidth IPC protocol to that spec) ...it works beautifully. i did port the C to a mix of unsafe C# + atomic Windows intrinsics, but it's surprisingly robust. I think your main argument here is that large C code bases can easily become unwieldy, and I agree with you on that. However, simple multithreading in C is simple. It's not a terribly difficult problem to solve.

jstimpfle 4y ago

Classic confusion of simple vs easy.

smitty1e 4y ago
Everything us easy when you know how to do it. But that learning curve...
- jstimpfle 4y ago
  Nobody said it's easy. Programming is hard. The statement is that the language is _simple_.
  - Ygg2 4y ago
    Nobody mentioned programming. And hard/easy is a relative term. My easy != your easy. Sharpened rock is a simple tool. Versatile too, but try using it to make a sculpture and it's going to be hard, very hard. Especially if you never used it extensively. C is a simple language. No doubt about it. But doing multi-threading and memory safety in C is like trying to build a 100m tall structure using nothing but a sharpened rock. Possible but, why would you. Java is a complex language. Lots of complexity. Classes, annotations, async, System.out and so on. But multi-threaded and memory safe (memory leaks allowed ofc) programs is as simple as just not using Java's array of unsafe tooling.
    - jstimpfle 4y ago
      Sure, there is no real disagreement, it's only a confusion about terminology. > But multi-threaded and memory safe (memory leaks allowed ofc) programs is as simple as just not using Java's array of unsafe tooling. as _easy_ as just not... "Complex" is the opposite of "simple". "Easy" is the opposite of "hard".

sacnoradhq 4y ago

libuv enters the chat.

josefx 4y ago

> Write a multithreaded program guaranteed to have no data races in C and tell me that C is simple. I could port most of the multiprocessing based python scripts I have lying around to C without a problem. Multithreading can be easy when you have a few rules in place what threads can read/modify data at a specific point in time.

jen20 4y ago
It’s even easier when a compiler enforces those rules.