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He says "although still important intellectually, it was no longer relevant to the kinds of things people needed." What people? The students? Working programmer

He says "although still important intellectually, it was no longer relevant to the kinds of things people needed." What people? The students? Working programmers? Companies? The university administration? Notice how he tells the anecdote about quitting "I suppose Hal and I basically walked into the department head's office sometime in the end of 97 and said, 'We quit. On this. Okay? Figure out what to do'.", and then the department couldn't figure out what to do. The story here isn't that a course that had been the same for over a decade was out-of-date, the story is that the organization didn't know where to go from there, they still don't know, and the people that were originally passionate about teaching the class were of retirement age, and both the profs and the textbook were retired from the class at the same time. If you want to read more into it than that, then we're reading the tealeaves of university administration decisions that not even the people making them are often in a position to understand. How do you know that building something more complex than you can understand is necessary, or is a good idea? Feynman said "What I cannot create, I do not understand," which seems like a better approach to me. I recently ran across Jonathan Blow's effort to create a new programming language, because he noticed that C++ is bloated to the point of buing unfit for purpose, and supposed that he could do better, despite being just one person (or perhaps, because of that). As I understand it, he's interested in working on games with the engine that he's writing in his new language. So the jury is still out on that fool's errand. Of course, he's still using the standard libraries provided by the OS, and he is after all writing an engine (and not just a standalone game) so your point stands.

kilgnad 4y ago
Bro, let's say the world embraced FP and it was the dominant paradigm and the techniques and patterns of SICP were taught in EVERY computer science curriculum. The change Sussman described that happened in engineering WILL STILL occur. He stated it didn't just happen with programming. It happened across the entire stack from the hardware all the way to software. What happens in this parallel universe? Most people won't spend the majority of there time using the techniques they learned in SICP.. instead they'll be trying to figure out how to get all these arcane libraries to work. >How do you know that building something more complex than you can understand is necessary, or is a good idea? Feynman said "What I cannot create, I do not understand," which seems like a better approach to me. How is what Feynman said a technique? He stated a fact about himself. If he can't create it, he can't understand it. So I'm pretty sure Feynman doesn't fully understand how an airplane works because he's never created one. This is not a technique this is fact. That being said, pilots ALSO don't understand how airplanes work. But that doesn't mean pilots can't use an airplane; in the same way I can use a library. >I recently ran across Jonathan Blow's effort to create a new programming language, because he noticed that C++ is bloated to the point of buing unfit for purpose, and supposed that he could do better, despite being just one person (or perhaps, because of that). As I understand it, he's interested in working on games with the engine that he's writing in his new language. So the jury is still out on that fool's errand. Of course, he's still using the standard libraries provided by the OS, and he is after all writing an engine (and not just a standalone game) so your point stands. It's a bit of a fools errand depending on how you look at it. If he had a boss, and was working for a company he'd be fucked because it'd take too long. Let's be real... he's more doing that for fun. If your goal was to fly an airplane, do you start off by building one? The only type of person who would do this is someone who does it as a sort of "fun" project. We all know C++ is a gigantic piece of garbage and we all can sort of visualize the better way in our imagination, but it doesn't change the fact it is still the most practical choice for many applications. Speaking of C++, Rust was(and may well be) a replacement for C++ started by mozilla. While rust was a great contribution to the community it ended up being pretty bad for mozilla from a business perspective so they dropped it. For mozilla yes it was a fools errand. For the engineers working for mozilla to develop rust it was a smart choice to work on cool shit on someone elses dime.
- inimino 4y ago
  First of all, pilots absolutely do know how airplanes work, and they make you study the aerodynamics and pass a course before you get your first hour of flight time, even as a student going up. Feynman understood how airplanes work better than I understand how the internet works, and that's reasonably well. The way it's a technique: first understand it, then you can try to create it. Did Feynman understand commercial jets well enough to build one from scratch? Certainly not. But if dropped off by time machine a decade before the Wright brothers, could he have saved everyone some time and gotten something off the ground, given similar resources? Yes. When pilots don't understand how airplanes work, you get MCAS, and we can all agree that can't be allowed to happen again (and was not entirely the pilot's fault, as they were lied to about the systems, in the service of getting one by the regulator). Rust was good for Graydon Hoare, as he got his ideas about safety out into the world. Later he burned out. Mozilla is one of the champions of mismanagement and squandering of every kind of technical and non-technical opportunity, and somehow the Rust juggernaut became its own thing that's quite extraordinary and hard to characterize. I'm sure there are a lot of stories there. As to the people choosing Rust today for non-systems programming work, because of fashion, that doesn't seem to be good for anyone, but opinions obviously differ there as well.
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    >First of all, pilots absolutely do know how airplanes work, and they make you study the aerodynamics and pass a course before you get your first hour of flight time, even as a student going up. But they can't build an airplane. This follows Your quote from Feynman. >Feynman understood how airplanes work better than I understand how the internet works, and that's reasonably well. Feynman can't build an airplane. Again you quoted him Admitting that if he can't build it, he doesn't know how it works. >The way it's a technique: first understand it, then you can try to create it. Except No pilot ever uses this technique. They fly a plane, but they mostly never build one. >Did Feynman understand commercial jets well enough to build one from scratch? Certainly not. But if dropped off by time machine a decade before the Wright brothers, could he have saved everyone some time and gotten something off the ground, given similar resources? Yes. What does this have to do with anything? Basically the point is the logic you following from that quote doesn't apply. A pilot CAN know how a plane works, so can Feynman, AND they both don't have to build one to know. The whole point of the plane and pilot thing is to show you the flawed logic. >When pilots don't understand how airplanes work, you get MCAS, and we can all agree that can't be allowed to happen again (and was not entirely the pilot's fault, as they were lied to about the systems, in the service of getting one by the regulator). They don't have to build an airplane to know about MCAS do they? That's the point here. They don't even have to know how to program. That is essentially what MCAS is: a program. Instead pilots deal with an abstraction. They have a very rough idea of how it works. Sort of like how programmers deal with libraries, but they don't have to build the libraries from scratch. >Rust was good for Graydon Hoare, as he got his ideas about safety out into the world. Later he burned out. Mozilla is one of the champions of mismanagement and squandering of every kind of technical and non-technical opportunity, and somehow the Rust juggernaut became its own thing that's quite extraordinary and hard to characterize. I'm sure there are a lot of stories there. As to the people choosing Rust today for non-systems programming work, because of fashion, that doesn't seem to be good for anyone, but opinions obviously differ there as well. Good for the community. Epic business mistake. A fools errand for Mozilla who basically conducted a charity for the community. >As to the people choosing Rust today for non-systems programming work Performance is a metric worth going after even if you're not directing calling any system calls. Honestly it's not even that hard or far away from a non-systems programming language.

kilgnad 4y ago

Bro, let's say the world embraced FP and it was the dominant paradigm and the techniques and patterns of SICP were taught in EVERY computer science curriculum. The change Sussman described that happened in engineering WILL STILL occur. He stated it didn't just happen with programming. It happened across the entire stack from the hardware all the way to software. What happens in this parallel universe? Most people won't spend the majority of there time using the techniques they learned in SICP.. instead they'll be trying to figure out how to get all these arcane libraries to work. >How do you know that building something more complex than you can understand is necessary, or is a good idea? Feynman said "What I cannot create, I do not understand," which seems like a better approach to me. How is what Feynman said a technique? He stated a fact about himself. If he can't create it, he can't understand it. So I'm pretty sure Feynman doesn't fully understand how an airplane works because he's never created one. This is not a technique this is fact. That being said, pilots ALSO don't understand how airplanes work. But that doesn't mean pilots can't use an airplane; in the same way I can use a library. >I recently ran across Jonathan Blow's effort to create a new programming language, because he noticed that C++ is bloated to the point of buing unfit for purpose, and supposed that he could do better, despite being just one person (or perhaps, because of that). As I understand it, he's interested in working on games with the engine that he's writing in his new language. So the jury is still out on that fool's errand. Of course, he's still using the standard libraries provided by the OS, and he is after all writing an engine (and not just a standalone game) so your point stands. It's a bit of a fools errand depending on how you look at it. If he had a boss, and was working for a company he'd be fucked because it'd take too long. Let's be real... he's more doing that for fun. If your goal was to fly an airplane, do you start off by building one? The only type of person who would do this is someone who does it as a sort of "fun" project. We all know C++ is a gigantic piece of garbage and we all can sort of visualize the better way in our imagination, but it doesn't change the fact it is still the most practical choice for many applications. Speaking of C++, Rust was(and may well be) a replacement for C++ started by mozilla. While rust was a great contribution to the community it ended up being pretty bad for mozilla from a business perspective so they dropped it. For mozilla yes it was a fools errand. For the engineers working for mozilla to develop rust it was a smart choice to work on cool shit on someone elses dime.

inimino 4y ago
First of all, pilots absolutely do know how airplanes work, and they make you study the aerodynamics and pass a course before you get your first hour of flight time, even as a student going up. Feynman understood how airplanes work better than I understand how the internet works, and that's reasonably well. The way it's a technique: first understand it, then you can try to create it. Did Feynman understand commercial jets well enough to build one from scratch? Certainly not. But if dropped off by time machine a decade before the Wright brothers, could he have saved everyone some time and gotten something off the ground, given similar resources? Yes. When pilots don't understand how airplanes work, you get MCAS, and we can all agree that can't be allowed to happen again (and was not entirely the pilot's fault, as they were lied to about the systems, in the service of getting one by the regulator). Rust was good for Graydon Hoare, as he got his ideas about safety out into the world. Later he burned out. Mozilla is one of the champions of mismanagement and squandering of every kind of technical and non-technical opportunity, and somehow the Rust juggernaut became its own thing that's quite extraordinary and hard to characterize. I'm sure there are a lot of stories there. As to the people choosing Rust today for non-systems programming work, because of fashion, that doesn't seem to be good for anyone, but opinions obviously differ there as well.
- kilgnad 4y ago
  >First of all, pilots absolutely do know how airplanes work, and they make you study the aerodynamics and pass a course before you get your first hour of flight time, even as a student going up. But they can't build an airplane. This follows Your quote from Feynman. >Feynman understood how airplanes work better than I understand how the internet works, and that's reasonably well. Feynman can't build an airplane. Again you quoted him Admitting that if he can't build it, he doesn't know how it works. >The way it's a technique: first understand it, then you can try to create it. Except No pilot ever uses this technique. They fly a plane, but they mostly never build one. >Did Feynman understand commercial jets well enough to build one from scratch? Certainly not. But if dropped off by time machine a decade before the Wright brothers, could he have saved everyone some time and gotten something off the ground, given similar resources? Yes. What does this have to do with anything? Basically the point is the logic you following from that quote doesn't apply. A pilot CAN know how a plane works, so can Feynman, AND they both don't have to build one to know. The whole point of the plane and pilot thing is to show you the flawed logic. >When pilots don't understand how airplanes work, you get MCAS, and we can all agree that can't be allowed to happen again (and was not entirely the pilot's fault, as they were lied to about the systems, in the service of getting one by the regulator). They don't have to build an airplane to know about MCAS do they? That's the point here. They don't even have to know how to program. That is essentially what MCAS is: a program. Instead pilots deal with an abstraction. They have a very rough idea of how it works. Sort of like how programmers deal with libraries, but they don't have to build the libraries from scratch. >Rust was good for Graydon Hoare, as he got his ideas about safety out into the world. Later he burned out. Mozilla is one of the champions of mismanagement and squandering of every kind of technical and non-technical opportunity, and somehow the Rust juggernaut became its own thing that's quite extraordinary and hard to characterize. I'm sure there are a lot of stories there. As to the people choosing Rust today for non-systems programming work, because of fashion, that doesn't seem to be good for anyone, but opinions obviously differ there as well. Good for the community. Epic business mistake. A fools errand for Mozilla who basically conducted a charity for the community. >As to the people choosing Rust today for non-systems programming work Performance is a metric worth going after even if you're not directing calling any system calls. Honestly it's not even that hard or far away from a non-systems programming language.