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It more or less is though. He's saying men can't show weakness. The examples in your page support that: men can only cry precisely when crying isn't a show of w

It more or less is though. He's saying men can't show weakness. The examples in your page support that: men can only cry precisely when crying isn't a show of weakness.

tptacek 4y ago
That's clearly not the case for all the examples in the page I provided.
- brhsagain 4y ago
  I dunno. I'm reading through them. I don't see any examples of weakness. On the contrary, every example is a guy crying for a really good damn reason. Even just the category itself kind of makes the point. The original claim way upthread was that women find guys who cry repulsive. I would assume this is roughly referring to guys crying when they run into a problem in life instead of dealing with it, that sort of thing. The examples in your link are, like, guys who gave their whole lives to a sport, everything's on the line, maximum skin in the game, and their crying is a show of strength, the raw emotion of someone at a peak/climactic moment.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    "That particular crying isn't showing weakness because it's for a good reason" seems like an easy way to make your argument un-falsifiable.
    - brhsagain 4y ago
      I think there's clearly a difference in perception between crying as a show of strength vs weakness. My intuition is that it's strong if you're crying after "coming back from the battlefield", after a long buildup period of stoicism and having given a fight all you've got, and weak if you're crying as a matter of constantly giving into whatever you're feeling in the moment. The examples in your link are as far on the "strong" end of the spectrum as they could be. It would falsify this if you found examples of our culture supporting guys just going through their daily lives and crying as an accessible reaction to random things that make them feel bad, almost as a sort of banality. (I think this is the bar, since culturally we're okay with women doing this.)
      - tptacek 4y ago
        No, hold on: like I said, many of these examples aren't shows of strength, they're shows of vulnerability. You're dismissing them because you've concluded they're legitimate, which is a special pleading argument.
        brhsagain 4y ago
        Hmm, okay. I was about to say that there's an interesting question of whether "vulnerability is a kind of strength," but I'm scrolling up and seeing that the original claim was that both weakness and vulnerability are unacceptable. I would agree there are some narrow forms of vulnerability displays by men that our culture finds acceptable, so I'll concede this one.

It more or less is though. He's saying men can't show weakness. The examples in your page support that: men can only cry precisely when crying isn't a show of weakness.

tptacek 4y ago

That's clearly not the case for all the examples in the page I provided.

brhsagain 4y ago
I dunno. I'm reading through them. I don't see any examples of weakness. On the contrary, every example is a guy crying for a really good damn reason. Even just the category itself kind of makes the point. The original claim way upthread was that women find guys who cry repulsive. I would assume this is roughly referring to guys crying when they run into a problem in life instead of dealing with it, that sort of thing. The examples in your link are, like, guys who gave their whole lives to a sport, everything's on the line, maximum skin in the game, and their crying is a show of strength, the raw emotion of someone at a peak/climactic moment.
- tptacek 4y ago
  "That particular crying isn't showing weakness because it's for a good reason" seems like an easy way to make your argument un-falsifiable.
  - brhsagain 4y ago
    I think there's clearly a difference in perception between crying as a show of strength vs weakness. My intuition is that it's strong if you're crying after "coming back from the battlefield", after a long buildup period of stoicism and having given a fight all you've got, and weak if you're crying as a matter of constantly giving into whatever you're feeling in the moment. The examples in your link are as far on the "strong" end of the spectrum as they could be. It would falsify this if you found examples of our culture supporting guys just going through their daily lives and crying as an accessible reaction to random things that make them feel bad, almost as a sort of banality. (I think this is the bar, since culturally we're okay with women doing this.)
    - tptacek 4y ago
      No, hold on: like I said, many of these examples aren't shows of strength, they're shows of vulnerability. You're dismissing them because you've concluded they're legitimate, which is a special pleading argument.
      - brhsagain 4y ago
        Hmm, okay. I was about to say that there's an interesting question of whether "vulnerability is a kind of strength," but I'm scrolling up and seeing that the original claim was that both weakness and vulnerability are unacceptable. I would agree there are some narrow forms of vulnerability displays by men that our culture finds acceptable, so I'll concede this one.