4 ms·

China is not simply rolled out as a boogeyman. Apart from any of their ambitions, at minimum the worlds reliance on them for various resources and manufacturing

China is not simply rolled out as a boogeyman. Apart from any of their ambitions, at minimum the worlds reliance on them for various resources and manufacturing capacity almost exclusively has, in the last 2.5 years, been revealed as an extreme flaw and risk to global economic stability when that resource and manufacturing pipeline is disrupted. That is, at a bare minimum, a serious problem that will take years to solve. Now, bringing geopolitics back into things, China as a government does not have geopolitical goals that aligne with those of the western world. Without even placing value judgements on those goals, this fact alone is serious enough to warrant extreme caution in dealing with the Chinese government. Whether Western powers do bad things or China does bad things or both do or who is worse— those things are irrelevant on this point. The goals of each are incompatible and this will unavoidably cause each side(s) to come into conflict with each other. These all leave aside any value judgements on government styles, human rights, etc. The issues above are all basic and fundamental problems and differences that should cause the west to be extremely cautious and skeptical of the surface appearance of any actions taken by the Chinese government. They are similarly wise to be cautious and skeptical on their side. This is simply the basic state of geopolitics, and acting in accordance with this state of affairs is not jingoism. What we should hope for is to continue to work toward finding common ground at least in so far as the conflicts remain political, economic, etc. and not violent or militaristic. But you can’t engage in that sort of relationship if you keep your eyes closed to the true nature of, and differences between, the goals and values of the various players involved here.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
chasil 4y ago
It would be very interesting to see the Ukraine situation replicate in Xinjiang in a few decades. History does not repeat itself, but it often rhymes.
SergeAx 4y ago
Which exactly China geopolitical goals not aligned with the West do you mean? Where are they declared?
- ineedasername 4y ago
  Are you asking for more information out of curiousity or are you also trying to imply that my assessment is incorrect? It is difficult to approach an answer to your question without knowing more about your expectations and intentions in asking it.
  - SergeAx 4y ago
    I am asking for more information and, preferably, sources. I am not an Asia politics expert, so the only thing came to my mind is the Chinese take on Taiwan.
    - ineedasername 4y ago
      People spend their entire careers understanding this topic and so I necessarily cannot answer it here except in it’s most fundamental form. Toward that end: At its most basic level, China’s geopolitical goals are to increase its influence, status, and power in the world. This is not a controversial claim. As one small piece of support for this I’ll offer up this quote from one of the Chinese ambassadors during their negotiations to enter the WTO: "We know we have to play the game your way now, but in ten years we will set the rules" If you google that quote verbatim you will find many sources that deal with China’s short and long term goals in much more detail. This basic goal is not, necessarily, completely zero sum, but neither can it be accomplished to any significant degree without displacing some of the power & influence that the Western powers have in the world. This unavoidably brings the various sides & interests powers into conflict. It is all much, much more complicated than this but this is a significant pillar in the foundations of China’s goals that put it at odds with the West. This alone is a strong influence on the economic conflicts and spats that arise. That’s about the best I can do in a forum like HN without simplifying the details more than I think may be useful for this conversation. For further sources, that quote really is the key to a lot of foreign policy analysis and well-sourced research on the topic. You may also want to do a few quick searches on China’s 2049 plan along with the 100 Years of Humiliation and its social/cultural influence on Chinas view towards the western world and its economical and technological goals to enable greater self sufficiency. I’d link to more direct sources but it’s late and I’m tired, and honestly searching on the specific terms and topics I mentioned will give you more and better information than is easily conveyed here.
norcon4 4y ago
Why are you worried about the world relying on China? The global economy was actually stabilized by China's zero-covid policy for the past few years because although lockdowns were disruptive, the death and disability of workers is an even greater threat. We now live in an even more unstable time now that China has abandoned this policy since the international community has decided to embrace living with covid. And God forbid a country outside the west hasn't been completely subjugated by it. Why exactly do you think China's goals aren't aligned with the West? Have you read anything about what imperialism was doing to China (and literally everywhere else on Earth not being settled by Europeans with few exceptions) during the 100 years of humiliation? Do you honestly expect a nation to take that in stride without retribution? I think a lot of younger folks like myself forget that colonialism was alive and well until around 50 years ago, which is the blink of an eye in the long-run. Sure, you can point to Tibet and Xinjiang as signs of hypocrisy, but I counter: where did all the native americans go in the USA and canada? What was done by the Belgians in the Congo? What was done by the French in Indochina? At least the Uyghurs and Tibetans are actually still alive in large numbers of healthy individuals. Even in China, minorities get special treatment. For example, they were exempt from the One-Child Policy. I don't think there's any example of that in western nations. In the US, black people get the privilege of seeing their children murdered at the hands of the police for minor offenses and disobedience! :) The war drums are beating and it's fascinating to see otherwise brilliant people fall victim to what is very clearly the propaganda being turned up to manufacture popular support for the genocide of billions under the name of "freedom", "democracy" and a "rules-based system". Let's do an exercise: which nuclear states have the weakest policies preventing the use of nuclear weapons? It's the United States, France, the UK, and Pakistan. Even Putin has stated multiple times on the record (even in late 2022) that Russia will not be the first to use nuclear weapons. India and China are strictly under a policy of no first-use. Let's remember history: the United States is the only state to ever have used nuclear weapons to deliberately kill people. And remember doubly: those bombs were dropped for demonstration purposes, not out of necessity, even a USA general said so. Clearly, greed and arrogance will be the downfall of Western imperialism. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, etc. are all de facto USA asian tributary states under USA hegemony, but nobody wants to acknowledge that. I hope that in the coming 5 - 10 years once you have the luxury to bear witness to western militaries indiscriminately genociding billions of civilians in the name of "maintaining a rules based order" that you realize you cannot wash the blood from your hands.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

chasil 4y ago

It would be very interesting to see the Ukraine situation replicate in Xinjiang in a few decades. History does not repeat itself, but it often rhymes.

SergeAx 4y ago

Which exactly China geopolitical goals not aligned with the West do you mean? Where are they declared?

ineedasername 4y ago
Are you asking for more information out of curiousity or are you also trying to imply that my assessment is incorrect? It is difficult to approach an answer to your question without knowing more about your expectations and intentions in asking it.
- SergeAx 4y ago
  I am asking for more information and, preferably, sources. I am not an Asia politics expert, so the only thing came to my mind is the Chinese take on Taiwan.
  - ineedasername 4y ago
    People spend their entire careers understanding this topic and so I necessarily cannot answer it here except in it’s most fundamental form. Toward that end: At its most basic level, China’s geopolitical goals are to increase its influence, status, and power in the world. This is not a controversial claim. As one small piece of support for this I’ll offer up this quote from one of the Chinese ambassadors during their negotiations to enter the WTO: "We know we have to play the game your way now, but in ten years we will set the rules" If you google that quote verbatim you will find many sources that deal with China’s short and long term goals in much more detail. This basic goal is not, necessarily, completely zero sum, but neither can it be accomplished to any significant degree without displacing some of the power & influence that the Western powers have in the world. This unavoidably brings the various sides & interests powers into conflict. It is all much, much more complicated than this but this is a significant pillar in the foundations of China’s goals that put it at odds with the West. This alone is a strong influence on the economic conflicts and spats that arise. That’s about the best I can do in a forum like HN without simplifying the details more than I think may be useful for this conversation. For further sources, that quote really is the key to a lot of foreign policy analysis and well-sourced research on the topic. You may also want to do a few quick searches on China’s 2049 plan along with the 100 Years of Humiliation and its social/cultural influence on Chinas view towards the western world and its economical and technological goals to enable greater self sufficiency. I’d link to more direct sources but it’s late and I’m tired, and honestly searching on the specific terms and topics I mentioned will give you more and better information than is easily conveyed here.

norcon4 4y ago

Why are you worried about the world relying on China? The global economy was actually stabilized by China's zero-covid policy for the past few years because although lockdowns were disruptive, the death and disability of workers is an even greater threat. We now live in an even more unstable time now that China has abandoned this policy since the international community has decided to embrace living with covid. And God forbid a country outside the west hasn't been completely subjugated by it. Why exactly do you think China's goals aren't aligned with the West? Have you read anything about what imperialism was doing to China (and literally everywhere else on Earth not being settled by Europeans with few exceptions) during the 100 years of humiliation? Do you honestly expect a nation to take that in stride without retribution? I think a lot of younger folks like myself forget that colonialism was alive and well until around 50 years ago, which is the blink of an eye in the long-run. Sure, you can point to Tibet and Xinjiang as signs of hypocrisy, but I counter: where did all the native americans go in the USA and canada? What was done by the Belgians in the Congo? What was done by the French in Indochina? At least the Uyghurs and Tibetans are actually still alive in large numbers of healthy individuals. Even in China, minorities get special treatment. For example, they were exempt from the One-Child Policy. I don't think there's any example of that in western nations. In the US, black people get the privilege of seeing their children murdered at the hands of the police for minor offenses and disobedience! :) The war drums are beating and it's fascinating to see otherwise brilliant people fall victim to what is very clearly the propaganda being turned up to manufacture popular support for the genocide of billions under the name of "freedom", "democracy" and a "rules-based system". Let's do an exercise: which nuclear states have the weakest policies preventing the use of nuclear weapons? It's the United States, France, the UK, and Pakistan. Even Putin has stated multiple times on the record (even in late 2022) that Russia will not be the first to use nuclear weapons. India and China are strictly under a policy of no first-use. Let's remember history: the United States is the only state to ever have used nuclear weapons to deliberately kill people. And remember doubly: those bombs were dropped for demonstration purposes, not out of necessity, even a USA general said so. Clearly, greed and arrogance will be the downfall of Western imperialism. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, etc. are all de facto USA asian tributary states under USA hegemony, but nobody wants to acknowledge that. I hope that in the coming 5 - 10 years once you have the luxury to bear witness to western militaries indiscriminately genociding billions of civilians in the name of "maintaining a rules based order" that you realize you cannot wash the blood from your hands.