7 ms·

As a South Korean, well, I don't like the Chinese government either, but these aggressive rhetorics don't help. My own country was under decades of pro-America

As a South Korean, well, I don't like the Chinese government either, but these aggressive rhetorics don't help. My own country was under decades of pro-American dictators, all the while conveniently enjoying the membership of the Free World(TM): at that point, what does "free" even mean? I'm not saying America is the force of evil; it has done some nice things, and some other pretty horrible things. What I'm trying to say is: if you have a sitting superpower and a rising wannabe, and you view it as a fight between good and evil, then you are practically inviting horrible things to happen, "because otherwise the bad guys will win." Think of all the horrible things that happened during the cold war.

rhaway84773 4y ago
It’s ironic to see a South Korean say this when all you need to do is look across the border to see what a Chinese supported alternative looks like.
- akjetma 4y ago
  The United States carpet bombed North Korea, destroying 90% of all structures in the country, killing 300,000 in the immediate bombing run, then sanctioned them into the stone age. The relative poverty of North Korea is not a consequence of Chinese support.
  - wk_end 4y ago
    The relative poverty of North Korea is far from the only problem with North Korea, though.
  - mlindner 4y ago
    The US did worse to Japan. Also South Korea was similarly carpet bombed in the process of re-taking it from the north as almost all territory was lost and the north almost won.
  - InTheArena 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - SergeAx 4y ago
      What about Iraq and Libya?
      - nemo44x 4y ago
        [flagged]
        SergeAx 4y ago
        What's the difference between them and Germany and Japan? They fucked around and found out too.
        nemo44x 4y ago
        Germany and Japan had competent post-conquer leaders and orderly civilizations that was/is useful. Iraq and Libya had incompetent leaders and useless people.
        SergeAx 4y ago
        So, to be leveled by US bombs and then capitulate is not exactly the way to prosperity, right?
        random314 4y ago
        Don't disturb the cognitive dissonance. Don't give free world leadership examples in Chile, Haiti, Guatemala, El Salvador, Iran, Palestine, Egypt, Bangladesh etc. The nature of the US military and economic machine as a force of ultimate good beating up truant, naughty countries must not be questioned. USA does not practice censorship, instead we have manufacturing of consent here.
        mardifoufs 4y ago
        How did iraq fuck around the USA in 2003? What the fuck, are the 1 million deaths caused by the iraq war also just people who fucked around and found out? I usually am pretty good at sensing sarcasm but this time I'm confused
  - jemmyw 4y ago
    It's a consequence of the political system in North Korea and Chinese support. The industry of the north grew faster and was larger than the south after the war. Eventually the economy of South Korea overtook and then greatly surpassed the north. China support = not wanting the Americans to win but wanting to keep North Korea a poor subservient state. Is America as bad? Sometimes, but I think plurality of leadership thought in the West always tempers the worst instincts of their nation states.
- foverzar 4y ago
  Are you being serious right now? The sorry looks of North Korea has nothing to do with China's support and everything to do with the fact that America has been beating and sanctioning the shit out of it since the day of it's inception. This kind of behavior followed by this kind of rhetorics is exactly why half-the-world hates you so much. Disgusting, I can't believe you aren't trolling right now.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    North Korea's communist dictatorship would have been overthrown decades ago if not for China's support of it.
    - foverzar 4y ago
      Your talk of China in relation to North Korea betrays your lack of historic and political knowledge. While China is it's only ally now, it wasn't always the case. North Korea would relatively peacefully evolve from dictatorship if it wasn't for America's pressure. This is purely Newton's third law of geopolitics. Do you really think people would go like "yeah, please fuck us harder so we can topple our government" instead of consolidating around it against a much larger evil, that fucks with their livelihood much harder (you)? Look at Afghanistan for example. Why do you think it reverted back to its baseline and why Taliban was able to assume control over the country so fast with almost no resistance just as soon as the US had withdrawn its troops? Or take a look at practically the whole history of young Russian Federation, from supporting ISIS-like radical islamists during the second Chechen war, to most-recent achievement of turning so many hardcore anti-war people into pro-war just by letting them have a good look at your actions. Cuba has little to none practical international support, and yet it is still "a communist dictatorship". Or even a better example, that would probably be easier for you to process: take a look at WWII-period Great Britain. It was a total strict dictatorship shithole. And people were FINE with that, as long as it was an effective protection against Nazis. To North Koreans (and so many other nations around the world) the US (and by extent, its allies) are the Nazis. Simply because you can't possibly dial your chauvinism down and ask yourselves some hard questions, like how come you feel like you have the right to fuck around on the other side of the globe. Sadly, I don't even see a realistic scenario how things could change without triggering a WWIII: America + allies (15-20% world population) vs the rest of the world.
jasmer 4y ago
It's 100% fair to question the geopolitical morality of any nation, especially the US, that's fine - but - as a South Korean, maybe you should consider for half a second the 50 000 Americans that died so that you would not be living as a slave under Kim Jong-un at this very moment. Aside from that more 'humanist' element, there is the geopolitical reality that your sovereignty is still depends on the US. After a war - nations usually have autocratic leaders who oversee a couple of decades of reconstruction, that is normal, and for them to be 'pro American' in the contex that America literally saved your entire nation from being slaves, is understandable. It's a bit hard to read what you have written, imagine what would happen if the US/West dropped support for literally you, either now or decades ago? Where would you be? Happy unification under democracy? My gosh. If you can't see that Xi is operating on a different moral level than most of the free world including S. Korea, then I have bad news for you. Putin invaded Ukraine because he thought it wold be a cake walk. The best thing we can do to 'avoid war' is to project strength, not ambiguity. Xi is not irrational, and if Taiwan is extremely well defended he won't invade. In fact, it's relatively easy to deter China if other nations just have some basic political courage and a basic coherent strategy, then we can mostly live happily together. (FYI I'm not American)
- defrost 4y ago
  > so that you would not be living as a slave under Kim Jong-un at this very moment. Leaving politics aside, that's some very flawed alternative history thinking there. The alternative world in which (say) Korean War era "Domino Theory" wasn't so aggresively pursued with military action and so many former Western colonies in Asia (Vietnam, Indonesia, etc) weren't defended from finding their own path post WWII is a world where factors that created an extreme North Korea, and Pol Pot in Cambodia, etc. are absent. Who's to say where the world would be had Kissinger and friends not been so hawkish. In Korea at least: Nearly 5 million people died. More than half of these–about 10 percent of Korea's prewar population–were civilians. (This rate of civilian casualties was higher than World War II's and the Vietnam War's.) Almost 40,000 Americans died in action in Korea, and more than 100,000 were wounded. Five million would still be alive, fewer families would have been torn asunder, and the < %1 of the deceased that were US service personal would not have died.
bamboozled 4y ago
Not being in the Freeworld might look something like North Korea and not having a forum like this ?
qwezxcrty 4y ago
To my knowledge, Taiwan had a similar situation before the end of White Terror in early 90s. The US apparently had no problem with pro-American dictators.
beebmam 4y ago
The cold war against the Soviet Union was an attempt to manage a communist power insistent on expanding its borders through coups, annexations, and puppet states. The whole point of a cold war is to stop a country from committing territorial aggression, while preventing an escalation to a hot war. It's a deeply moral thing to do. In this sense, the cold war against the Soviet Union was profoundly successful. Let's hope this will be the same for the ongoing cold war with China to contain its territorial ambitions in east asia, like for Taiwan (which it is actively threatening with force[1]) and all of the other countries which China is expanding its territory into (illegally, through the use of artificial islands)[2]. 1. https://www.voanews.com/a/china-reaffirms-threat-of-military-force-to-annex-taiwan-/6695555.html https://www.voanews.com/a/china-reaffirms-threat-of-military... 2. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/21/china-has-fully-militarized-three-islands-in-south-china-sea-us-admiral-says https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/21/china-has-full...

rhaway84773 4y ago

It’s ironic to see a South Korean say this when all you need to do is look across the border to see what a Chinese supported alternative looks like.

akjetma 4y ago
The United States carpet bombed North Korea, destroying 90% of all structures in the country, killing 300,000 in the immediate bombing run, then sanctioned them into the stone age. The relative poverty of North Korea is not a consequence of Chinese support.
- wk_end 4y ago
  The relative poverty of North Korea is far from the only problem with North Korea, though.
- mlindner 4y ago
  The US did worse to Japan. Also South Korea was similarly carpet bombed in the process of re-taking it from the north as almost all territory was lost and the north almost won.
- InTheArena 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - SergeAx 4y ago
    What about Iraq and Libya?
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - SergeAx 4y ago
        What's the difference between them and Germany and Japan? They fucked around and found out too.
        nemo44x 4y ago
        Germany and Japan had competent post-conquer leaders and orderly civilizations that was/is useful. Iraq and Libya had incompetent leaders and useless people.
        SergeAx 4y ago
        So, to be leveled by US bombs and then capitulate is not exactly the way to prosperity, right?
        random314 4y ago
        Don't disturb the cognitive dissonance. Don't give free world leadership examples in Chile, Haiti, Guatemala, El Salvador, Iran, Palestine, Egypt, Bangladesh etc. The nature of the US military and economic machine as a force of ultimate good beating up truant, naughty countries must not be questioned. USA does not practice censorship, instead we have manufacturing of consent here.
      - mardifoufs 4y ago
        How did iraq fuck around the USA in 2003? What the fuck, are the 1 million deaths caused by the iraq war also just people who fucked around and found out? I usually am pretty good at sensing sarcasm but this time I'm confused
- jemmyw 4y ago
  It's a consequence of the political system in North Korea and Chinese support. The industry of the north grew faster and was larger than the south after the war. Eventually the economy of South Korea overtook and then greatly surpassed the north. China support = not wanting the Americans to win but wanting to keep North Korea a poor subservient state. Is America as bad? Sometimes, but I think plurality of leadership thought in the West always tempers the worst instincts of their nation states.
foverzar 4y ago
Are you being serious right now? The sorry looks of North Korea has nothing to do with China's support and everything to do with the fact that America has been beating and sanctioning the shit out of it since the day of it's inception. This kind of behavior followed by this kind of rhetorics is exactly why half-the-world hates you so much. Disgusting, I can't believe you aren't trolling right now.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  North Korea's communist dictatorship would have been overthrown decades ago if not for China's support of it.
  - foverzar 4y ago
    Your talk of China in relation to North Korea betrays your lack of historic and political knowledge. While China is it's only ally now, it wasn't always the case. North Korea would relatively peacefully evolve from dictatorship if it wasn't for America's pressure. This is purely Newton's third law of geopolitics. Do you really think people would go like "yeah, please fuck us harder so we can topple our government" instead of consolidating around it against a much larger evil, that fucks with their livelihood much harder (you)? Look at Afghanistan for example. Why do you think it reverted back to its baseline and why Taliban was able to assume control over the country so fast with almost no resistance just as soon as the US had withdrawn its troops? Or take a look at practically the whole history of young Russian Federation, from supporting ISIS-like radical islamists during the second Chechen war, to most-recent achievement of turning so many hardcore anti-war people into pro-war just by letting them have a good look at your actions. Cuba has little to none practical international support, and yet it is still "a communist dictatorship". Or even a better example, that would probably be easier for you to process: take a look at WWII-period Great Britain. It was a total strict dictatorship shithole. And people were FINE with that, as long as it was an effective protection against Nazis. To North Koreans (and so many other nations around the world) the US (and by extent, its allies) are the Nazis. Simply because you can't possibly dial your chauvinism down and ask yourselves some hard questions, like how come you feel like you have the right to fuck around on the other side of the globe. Sadly, I don't even see a realistic scenario how things could change without triggering a WWIII: America + allies (15-20% world population) vs the rest of the world.

jasmer 4y ago

It's 100% fair to question the geopolitical morality of any nation, especially the US, that's fine - but - as a South Korean, maybe you should consider for half a second the 50 000 Americans that died so that you would not be living as a slave under Kim Jong-un at this very moment. Aside from that more 'humanist' element, there is the geopolitical reality that your sovereignty is still depends on the US. After a war - nations usually have autocratic leaders who oversee a couple of decades of reconstruction, that is normal, and for them to be 'pro American' in the contex that America literally saved your entire nation from being slaves, is understandable. It's a bit hard to read what you have written, imagine what would happen if the US/West dropped support for literally you, either now or decades ago? Where would you be? Happy unification under democracy? My gosh. If you can't see that Xi is operating on a different moral level than most of the free world including S. Korea, then I have bad news for you. Putin invaded Ukraine because he thought it wold be a cake walk. The best thing we can do to 'avoid war' is to project strength, not ambiguity. Xi is not irrational, and if Taiwan is extremely well defended he won't invade. In fact, it's relatively easy to deter China if other nations just have some basic political courage and a basic coherent strategy, then we can mostly live happily together. (FYI I'm not American)

defrost 4y ago
> so that you would not be living as a slave under Kim Jong-un at this very moment. Leaving politics aside, that's some very flawed alternative history thinking there. The alternative world in which (say) Korean War era "Domino Theory" wasn't so aggresively pursued with military action and so many former Western colonies in Asia (Vietnam, Indonesia, etc) weren't defended from finding their own path post WWII is a world where factors that created an extreme North Korea, and Pol Pot in Cambodia, etc. are absent. Who's to say where the world would be had Kissinger and friends not been so hawkish. In Korea at least: Nearly 5 million people died. More than half of these–about 10 percent of Korea's prewar population–were civilians. (This rate of civilian casualties was higher than World War II's and the Vietnam War's.) Almost 40,000 Americans died in action in Korea, and more than 100,000 were wounded. Five million would still be alive, fewer families would have been torn asunder, and the < %1 of the deceased that were US service personal would not have died.

bamboozled 4y ago

Not being in the Freeworld might look something like North Korea and not having a forum like this ?

qwezxcrty 4y ago

To my knowledge, Taiwan had a similar situation before the end of White Terror in early 90s. The US apparently had no problem with pro-American dictators.

beebmam 4y ago

The cold war against the Soviet Union was an attempt to manage a communist power insistent on expanding its borders through coups, annexations, and puppet states. The whole point of a cold war is to stop a country from committing territorial aggression, while preventing an escalation to a hot war. It's a deeply moral thing to do. In this sense, the cold war against the Soviet Union was profoundly successful. Let's hope this will be the same for the ongoing cold war with China to contain its territorial ambitions in east asia, like for Taiwan (which it is actively threatening with force[1]) and all of the other countries which China is expanding its territory into (illegally, through the use of artificial islands)[2]. 1. https://www.voanews.com/a/china-reaffirms-threat-of-military-force-to-annex-taiwan-/6695555.html https://www.voanews.com/a/china-reaffirms-threat-of-military... 2. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/21/china-has-fully-militarized-three-islands-in-south-china-sea-us-admiral-says https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/21/china-has-full...