6 ms·

It really staggers me the lengths some people will go to try and preserve something that is actively against them, when there are alternatives right there. I'm

by worble 4y ago

It really staggers me the lengths some people will go to try and preserve something that is actively against them, when there are alternatives right there. I'm not saying Linux is for everyone, but the kind of people creating and running these scripts really should have no issue daily driving Ubuntu or even Arch. Or if they desperately need photoshop or whatever, get a mac. It's like watching people constantly go back to an abusive relationship.

nateb2022 4y ago
Agreed. My initial response to any post beginning something like "On Windows XP..." "On Windows 7..." "On Debian..." would be like: "Well you already have Windows XP/7/Debian/whatever. If you want to use that, use that. Nobody is forcing you to use Windows 11." For the people who do want to use Windows 11, and who see it for what it is, it's pretty great. For the people who use Windows XP/7 or who stick to some minimalistic un-featured XFCE-running underpowered Linux machine, you do your own thing. No need to force that on everyone else.
- out-of-ideas 4y ago
  debloating does not mean "making it like XP/W7" - it means ripping out the horsecrap and unnecessairy components that are both unnecessairy and a waste of space and being able to control what goes on your system - sort of like what nix allows us to do; it also means having options to turn things on and off, ect. for the non tech savvy - windows is still a great choice for those wanting to simply game and not learn something new like linux - these are the same folks that do notice a difference in OS being bloating and see ads, while asking for help knowing others know more; which a lot of us do not have the time nor energy to fully support a vast array of friends' systems. these debloated windows are great for those folks, and for me not having to /shurg and have people buy more hdd space for nothing. was it not linus himself that mentioned that linux as a popular desktop os will not be a thing until manufactures who provide prebuild OS's (and support them) - ship them with linux? but in all honesty i fell that the X vs Wayland needs to be a bit more solidified, similarly with alsa/pulse/pipewire lol ; but those are different issues
  - fuzzfactor 4y ago
    For the enthusiasts who are doing the debloating, it's almost like they are gaming the system as they move from one level to another. Twenty years ago I had already been installing Windows XP to FAT32 volumes directly to be more compatible with W9x multibooting. I didn't know anybody else doing this (some thought it couldn't be done) but every time I installed XP you can see the names of every driver as it loads during creation of the pre-installation environment. The very last two drivers are FAT32.SYS followed by NTFS.SYS. I figured Windows might have first been made functional on FAT32 but launched with the intention of total migration to NTFS for most people as seen. In my later experimentation I found that Vista would run from a FAT32 partition but default Windows 7 would not do it very easily, simply because the WinSxS folder (pronounced win-sucks) was oversized in an insidious way. The W7 WinSxS folder size was bigger than Vista's but it did not approach the maximum size that FAT32 can handle. Instead it was the un-necessarily stupidly long filenames which overran the long-filename handling ability of FAT32 early when there were enough of them. Like the best engineers would never have even considered doing at the time, much less go into production. By judiciously deleting the majority of the contents of WinSxS (but not all by any means), W7 can be run from FAT32 as well without any functional shortcomings as far as my office was concerned. The modern approach to testing this for yourself would be to install the default W7 to a regular NTFS volume, then debloat the WinSxS folder manually, perhaps in safe mode or when booted to an alternative OS so none of the files on the W7 volume are in use at the time. Reboot to something like the W11 USB setup media, "Troubleshoot" to go to the command prompt (instead of installing W11), then capture (back up) the debloated dormant W7 partition manually using DISM.EXE. Then later, on a freshly formatted FAT32 drive, apply the captured W7 system, again using DISM. Create new boot files for the newly applied W7 system using BCDBOOT.EXE. Boot W7 while it's on FAT32 and prosper. Works not that much faster than on an NTFS volume, but if you can reboot to Windows 9x on a multiboot system, you can search the FAT32 W7 volume blazingly faster than when the identical W7 system searches itself while on NTFS. Now of course all of this needs to be done in legacy BIOS mode since UEFI alone is not adequate for such continued full PC performance. I guess I could have been playing video games instead but reaching this level seemed just as rewarding anyway. Wonder if W11 would do this. Edit: For extra credit I already put W11 onto old BIOS PC's without any GPT, with regular MBR like it was W10. Bypassing hardware restrictions into smaller-than-recommended NTFS volumes using DISM.
- dijit 4y ago
  > Nobody is forcing you to use Windows 11. This is not strictly true, theres tonnes of reasons to use windows, for example I run thousands of gameservers. If I can shave memory usage of the OS that translates to a lot of cost savings. Windows XP/Vista/7 and soon: 10 being EOL does force me to upgrade.
martin_a 4y ago
> Or if they desperately need photoshop or whatever, get a mac. I'm kind of in that situation and I don't thing going with Mac and the Apple ecosystem really is better than trying to use Windows 10 as long as possible on an older Thinkpad.
- dbtc 4y ago
  What about the gimp?
  - avx56 4y ago
    *The GIMP™
  - martin_a 4y ago
    Didn't really get the hang of it to phrase it that way. Everybody who's using tools like Photoshop professionally has been "shaped" to feel well in the Adobe ecosystem. I doubt that's good but that's how it is. Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, they all feel and work similiar which helps with transitioning/switching between these tools without big issues. Now take Gimp, Inkscape and Scribus against that. Everything looks different and probably works different, too. I need to get work done, not learn three seperate programs. Also Scribus seems to be dead, latest Dev blog entry is from 2016. Serif is doing great work with Affinity, but Adobe is still going strong and defines the professional industry. As long as that's the case we're stuck with Windows/Macs for professional work.
userbinator 4y ago
It really staggers me the lengths some people will go to try and preserve something that is actively against them, when there are alternatives right there. The same can be said for those working on jailbreaks and the M1 Linux project, as well as all of the cracking/hacking scene. For some people, it's far more interesting and enjoyable to fight --- and possibly win --- than just "abandoning ship".
rejectfinite 4y ago
This is not for regular Windows 11 useage... This removes WinSXS so cannot be upgraded, apps wont work etc etc
qwezxcrty 4y ago
Well, maybe I'm a minority for having a EE/physical science hobby, but also belong to the kind of people you are referring to. I'm pretty stuck to Windows as I need it to drive my home lab. I need to run Windows to 1. Get data from a old optical spectrometer. It was designed for optical endpointing of plasma etching. And one will have a hard time finding anything that is not running Windows in a fab (except lithography). 2. Run a 28 years old piece of software to acquire timestamps from a HP 53310A modulation domain analyzer 3. Grab frames from an old xray detector 4. Work with two NI DAQ cards. Yes, they are supposed to work on Linux, but I always get weird errors on my Ubuntu work computer while they never failed me on my Windows laptop. 5. Use Autodesk Inventor to prepare files for 3D printer/machine shop. Siemens NX used to work on Linux, but apart from that, there is not a single piece of non-toy 3D CAD software that I'm aware of support Mac or Linux. 6. LTSpice simulations and Altium Designer layouting. Windows is the only first class citizen in many areas, software development and artistic work are two exceptions. And so far, it seems I can still always be one step ahead of MS in the anti-consumer war, so I'm not too worried.

by worble 4y ago

nateb2022 4y ago

Agreed. My initial response to any post beginning something like "On Windows XP..." "On Windows 7..." "On Debian..." would be like: "Well you already have Windows XP/7/Debian/whatever. If you want to use that, use that. Nobody is forcing you to use Windows 11." For the people who do want to use Windows 11, and who see it for what it is, it's pretty great. For the people who use Windows XP/7 or who stick to some minimalistic un-featured XFCE-running underpowered Linux machine, you do your own thing. No need to force that on everyone else.

out-of-ideas 4y ago
debloating does not mean "making it like XP/W7" - it means ripping out the horsecrap and unnecessairy components that are both unnecessairy and a waste of space and being able to control what goes on your system - sort of like what nix allows us to do; it also means having options to turn things on and off, ect. for the non tech savvy - windows is still a great choice for those wanting to simply game and not learn something new like linux - these are the same folks that do notice a difference in OS being bloating and see ads, while asking for help knowing others know more; which a lot of us do not have the time nor energy to fully support a vast array of friends' systems. these debloated windows are great for those folks, and for me not having to /shurg and have people buy more hdd space for nothing. was it not linus himself that mentioned that linux as a popular desktop os will not be a thing until manufactures who provide prebuild OS's (and support them) - ship them with linux? but in all honesty i fell that the X vs Wayland needs to be a bit more solidified, similarly with alsa/pulse/pipewire lol ; but those are different issues
- fuzzfactor 4y ago
  For the enthusiasts who are doing the debloating, it's almost like they are gaming the system as they move from one level to another. Twenty years ago I had already been installing Windows XP to FAT32 volumes directly to be more compatible with W9x multibooting. I didn't know anybody else doing this (some thought it couldn't be done) but every time I installed XP you can see the names of every driver as it loads during creation of the pre-installation environment. The very last two drivers are FAT32.SYS followed by NTFS.SYS. I figured Windows might have first been made functional on FAT32 but launched with the intention of total migration to NTFS for most people as seen. In my later experimentation I found that Vista would run from a FAT32 partition but default Windows 7 would not do it very easily, simply because the WinSxS folder (pronounced win-sucks) was oversized in an insidious way. The W7 WinSxS folder size was bigger than Vista's but it did not approach the maximum size that FAT32 can handle. Instead it was the un-necessarily stupidly long filenames which overran the long-filename handling ability of FAT32 early when there were enough of them. Like the best engineers would never have even considered doing at the time, much less go into production. By judiciously deleting the majority of the contents of WinSxS (but not all by any means), W7 can be run from FAT32 as well without any functional shortcomings as far as my office was concerned. The modern approach to testing this for yourself would be to install the default W7 to a regular NTFS volume, then debloat the WinSxS folder manually, perhaps in safe mode or when booted to an alternative OS so none of the files on the W7 volume are in use at the time. Reboot to something like the W11 USB setup media, "Troubleshoot" to go to the command prompt (instead of installing W11), then capture (back up) the debloated dormant W7 partition manually using DISM.EXE. Then later, on a freshly formatted FAT32 drive, apply the captured W7 system, again using DISM. Create new boot files for the newly applied W7 system using BCDBOOT.EXE. Boot W7 while it's on FAT32 and prosper. Works not that much faster than on an NTFS volume, but if you can reboot to Windows 9x on a multiboot system, you can search the FAT32 W7 volume blazingly faster than when the identical W7 system searches itself while on NTFS. Now of course all of this needs to be done in legacy BIOS mode since UEFI alone is not adequate for such continued full PC performance. I guess I could have been playing video games instead but reaching this level seemed just as rewarding anyway. Wonder if W11 would do this. Edit: For extra credit I already put W11 onto old BIOS PC's without any GPT, with regular MBR like it was W10. Bypassing hardware restrictions into smaller-than-recommended NTFS volumes using DISM.
dijit 4y ago
> Nobody is forcing you to use Windows 11. This is not strictly true, theres tonnes of reasons to use windows, for example I run thousands of gameservers. If I can shave memory usage of the OS that translates to a lot of cost savings. Windows XP/Vista/7 and soon: 10 being EOL does force me to upgrade.

martin_a 4y ago

> Or if they desperately need photoshop or whatever, get a mac. I'm kind of in that situation and I don't thing going with Mac and the Apple ecosystem really is better than trying to use Windows 10 as long as possible on an older Thinkpad.

dbtc 4y ago
What about the gimp?
- avx56 4y ago
  *The GIMP™
- martin_a 4y ago
  Didn't really get the hang of it to phrase it that way. Everybody who's using tools like Photoshop professionally has been "shaped" to feel well in the Adobe ecosystem. I doubt that's good but that's how it is. Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, they all feel and work similiar which helps with transitioning/switching between these tools without big issues. Now take Gimp, Inkscape and Scribus against that. Everything looks different and probably works different, too. I need to get work done, not learn three seperate programs. Also Scribus seems to be dead, latest Dev blog entry is from 2016. Serif is doing great work with Affinity, but Adobe is still going strong and defines the professional industry. As long as that's the case we're stuck with Windows/Macs for professional work.

userbinator 4y ago

It really staggers me the lengths some people will go to try and preserve something that is actively against them, when there are alternatives right there. The same can be said for those working on jailbreaks and the M1 Linux project, as well as all of the cracking/hacking scene. For some people, it's far more interesting and enjoyable to fight --- and possibly win --- than just "abandoning ship".

rejectfinite 4y ago

This is not for regular Windows 11 useage... This removes WinSXS so cannot be upgraded, apps wont work etc etc

qwezxcrty 4y ago

Well, maybe I'm a minority for having a EE/physical science hobby, but also belong to the kind of people you are referring to. I'm pretty stuck to Windows as I need it to drive my home lab. I need to run Windows to 1. Get data from a old optical spectrometer. It was designed for optical endpointing of plasma etching. And one will have a hard time finding anything that is not running Windows in a fab (except lithography). 2. Run a 28 years old piece of software to acquire timestamps from a HP 53310A modulation domain analyzer 3. Grab frames from an old xray detector 4. Work with two NI DAQ cards. Yes, they are supposed to work on Linux, but I always get weird errors on my Ubuntu work computer while they never failed me on my Windows laptop. 5. Use Autodesk Inventor to prepare files for 3D printer/machine shop. Siemens NX used to work on Linux, but apart from that, there is not a single piece of non-toy 3D CAD software that I'm aware of support Mac or Linux. 6. LTSpice simulations and Altium Designer layouting. Windows is the only first class citizen in many areas, software development and artistic work are two exceptions. And so far, it seems I can still always be one step ahead of MS in the anti-consumer war, so I'm not too worried.