11 ms·

Fulcrum: an ergo-mechanical split keyboard with extra thumb functionality

177 points by zdw 4y ago

alanbernstein 4y ago
Like a compromise between an ergo board and a data hand. The motivation for this sounds convincing. My problem is that I’m not willing or able to put the time into learning a new layout, with or without a chording aspect.
- deleted 4y ago
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- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  I think this is a super cool keyboard, but if I were going to learn a chorded keyboard, I'd probably go all in on the type steganographers use to type 300 WPM
  - capableweb 4y ago
    You could always use a "normal" (QWERTY) keyboard for steno if you'd like, some people had success with Plover (http://www.openstenoproject.org/ http://www.openstenoproject.org/) for doing this. You can even try it in the browser: http://www.openstenoproject.org/demo/ http://www.openstenoproject.org/demo/ What would be really interesting would be a keyboard specifically for programming. Chords that can be customized to fit your language, would make a lot of sense. Integrate some ideas from things like Paraedit et al, and you could probably get up to crazy speeds in editing and writing really quickly.
    - jrockway 4y ago
      I tried this, but honestly the keyswitches are awfully heavy when you are pressing more than 2 of them at once. I ended up half-building a steno keyboard with lighter switches for this reason... half-building because I started during the pandemic, no microcontrollers I wanted were available, and then I forgot about the project until ... just now. Someday though.
      - worthless-trash 4y ago
        I have seen people refit the Uni steno keyboards with lighter springs, it looks like the easiest way to get started.
      - brokenmachine 4y ago
        Ergodox is actually a very usable design for steno.
  - dschil138 4y ago
    I don't really think it's fair to call it a chorded keyboard. It does have chords, but they are mostly optional and there for convenience. Every alpha letter has it's own key. Some are on a second layer, but that layer is also "one-shot" so you don't even need to chord to use it, like you do with typing capital letters with shift, for instance.
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      > if I were going to learn a chorded keyboard I'd want it to be one handed so I could do something else (turn pages, move mouse) with the other hand. also, it would have to promise longevity and ubiquity, if I'm going to learn it, I want it to pay off in extended usage
    - dcow 4y ago
      How do you access the alpha2 layer? Edit: looks like you toggle it with your right thumb? That seems like a lot of thumb presses or more key strokes per word. How do you know which layer is active when you return between sessions?
      - dschil138 4y ago
        yeah the right thumb is a "one-shot" key to go to the second layer. So you press it, and then only whatever key you press next is on the second layer. So you're always on the fist layer unless you just pressed that key. It does end up being (slightly) more keypresses, but it's built on the idea that 1.) two comfortable keypresses are easier than one uncomfortable keypress and 2.) our thumbs are already absurdly under-utilized on current keyboards.
  - brokenmachine 4y ago
    Stenography is pretty difficult. It's more complicated than simply "chorded keyboard" might imply. Going "all in" on stenography is a very significant time investment. Much more than what you'd think. It's not like a normal keyboard where when you start you're just slow, but you know how to type every word. You won't even know how to type syllables/words that you haven't learned yet. I've had a couple of tries but never got past the beginner stage, and there's many, many words that I have no idea how to type.
- angry_moose 4y ago
  I tried it to a lesser extent (Keyboardio 100) and stuck with it just long enough to determine it would be great if I never used any other computers with a standard keyboard. After 2 weeks I could barely even type on my laptop anymore - I just couldn't hold both layouts in my head. Numbers, punctuation, and special keys were completely different; even though letters were "the same" they moved enough I was making a ton of typos. I came to the conclusion I wasn't willing to buy an additional keyboard for my work computer and give up my laptop so I ended up selling it.
  - mistersys 4y ago
    I had a similar experience after switching to DVORAK as a nerdy teenager, however I found by just leaving my smartphone on QWERTY, I'm able to switch and still type 40 - 50wpm with minimal practice on a real keyboard. I'm more like 100wpm on DVORAK. Practicing both layouts a little may make it possible to keep both modes in your head, but I don't know if a completely different input mode would make this harder.
  - Arainach 4y ago
    Interesting. I switched to a custom ergo layout (ZSA Moonlander) but my traditional QWERTY laptops are sufficiently different that I have no problems going back and forth between that and my desktops.
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    From what I hear the first step is learning the new layout and the next step is being able to switch between the two. Though... how often are you using other peoples keyboards? I hear this complaint a lot and I wonder about it.
    - jrockway 4y ago
      I never use other people's computers (think about where their fingers have been), so this would never be a concern for me. I use an Ergodox and it's a little rough switching to the laptop (how can people hold their hands so close together?), but I can do it. I still use QWERTY though, with a bunch of local tweaks for non-letter characters. I would say that if you type fast enough for as long as you desire without pain, the cost of learning a new keyboard layout is a questionable investment. But, if you have hand pain, you should probably work on resolving that immediately, or pain may become a disability. (I followed my own advice, my right pinky used to hurt after a day of work. Moving all the important symbols away from that pinky key, probably most notably backspace, cleared everything up. Many more years of typing stuff into a computer in my future.)
- larusso 4y ago
  A couple of years ago I wanted to switch to an Ortholiner. I used magic keyboards until then. During the first weeks I actually realized that I never used my ten fingers. I was reasonable fast but my hands where more moving over the keyboard like a piano player. So I went one step back and bought a normal Lay-out mechanical keyboard and started to learn the proper 10 finger touch typing through several websites. I‘m still not mega fast but depending on the things I write I can be quite fast. While learning this and also tinkering with my keyboard firmware to add more comfortable shortcuts etc I lost the ability to write fast on my macbook keyboard. Every now and then when I have to use it, I slip into the old typing style. But it doesn’t feel as good anymore. I‘m on the same side here and would be very conservative with my time to spend it on this very special gear. And I only spend time and money on the normal QWERTY board :)
c54 4y ago
Interest concept. Are there any videos of someone using one ? I couldn’t find any on youtube
whitemary 4y ago
Why would I invest the time, effort, and incalculable risk involved in adopting and depending on a boutique experimental keyboard system? Why do all keyboard projects either mindlessly adhere to antique conventions or hopelessly diverge into zaniness? Why is it so difficult to find a multi-platform split keyboard with no gimmicks, standard layouts, and sane defaults. I will buy a back-stock of 10 when I find it. The closest thing so far is the Mistel MD770 so I own 2 of them.
- morjom 4y ago
  Are moonlander and ergodox too zany or too out of the default? I used a MD600 for a while, and found that keyboards that are just qwerties chopped in half diagonally in the middle-ish aren't really taking advantage of the splitness enough, so ergodox or a dactyl seemed better for me.
  - pletnes 4y ago
    My moonlander took a few days/weeks of getting used to, but it’s not very «far out» in my mind. The biggest hurdle is getting used to the ortholinear keys, but this quickly feels much better. Would warmly recommend to anyone spending much time in front of a keyboard, really.
    - zwayhowder 4y ago
      The biggest hurdle is wondering why your space bar is no longer working on a normal keyboard, and realising that you are actually smashing the alt key :D But seriously, I love my Moonlander(s) and have no regrets buying them.
      - mynameisvlad 4y ago
        > The biggest hurdle is wondering why your space bar is no longer working on a normal keyboard, and realising that you are actually smashing the alt key :D This hasn't really been an issue for me after the first week or two of use. My muscle memory adjusts based on which keyboard I'm using. Typing this on my MBP's laptop keyboard while I work using my Moonlander day-to-day. > But seriously, I love my Moonlander(s) and have no regrets buying them. Also got a second for the office because of how much I love it. Only minor regrets because spending over 1k on two keyboards (after caps, etc) is a tough pill to swallow.
Waterluvian 4y ago
Hyper optimized HIDs are a fascinating curiosity to me. I feel like a lot of the time they’re meant to fulfill a daydream of optimization that oftentimes never gets realized. It’s like stenography, the cost of deviating from the norm is high but very valuable for specific use cases. Or maybe I’m just projecting my Jr. Engineer days where I spent silly amounts of time optimizing my text editor with dreams of it making me one with my computer.
- dschil138 4y ago
  I totally agree with you in theory but for this specific board, can tell you that it improved my typing speed ~10wpm, and completely eliminated my RSI issues. When I say I had major RSI issues, I mean I once had to spend 6 weeks typing with only my left hand bc the right hurt so bad. So it was worth it just for getting rid of that. But in general I totally agree with you. I think about that a lot when optimizing like VSCode settings, for example. Like "this isn't really productive work here. it just feels like it."
- mosquitobiten 4y ago
  > fulfill a daydream of optimization that oftentimes never gets realized with so many things, creating something like this maybe you start like that but end up realizing you just wanted to express yourself. challenging the norm is a given and popularity is just a plus.
- keybored 4y ago
  On the one hand, yes… no, in fact three things: 1. On the one hand, yes. It can be very idealistic. You might imagine that you will achieve a new level of productivity where you will look down on your previous level and think: “How did I ever get anything done down there?” 2. Computer input optimization often gets derided with some variation on the “my typing speed is not the bottleneck when writing code”. But first of all, productivity in the immediate sense might not be the point: the point might be ergonomics and health. And it sounds silly to get health issues by just sitting and typing stuff and yet… well, it does happen a lot, apparently.[1] I have done some optimizations with regards to my keyboard but the holy grail for me (I feel like) is stenography (which you mentioned). But I fear that I’m not the kind of person that could devote something like on average 30 minutes a day for multiple months to that. 3. Things like optimizing my setup is what makes me excited. So if I can keep my idealism in check then the journey itself will have been worth the effort. [1] You’re screwed either way: if you’re in a physical profession (a “trade”) you wear your body out. If you are in an office job you either don’t use your body enough, get some kind of ergonomic problem, or get burnout from being too much in your head.
vl 4y ago
Very cool project! I’m a big fan of vertical key rows and split design. So much so that I pulled the trigger and ordered new Kinesis Advantage 360 Pro - currently I’m a happy user of Advantage2.
- microtonal 4y ago
  Happy for you that you ordered a 360 Pro, the regular 360 firmware is still extremely buggy. The keycaps on the 360 Pro are quite 'meh' though. I replaced them by Kinesis PBT blanks. Still don't like the Gateron Browns as much as the Cherry Browns or Silent Reds on the KA2.
  - vl 4y ago
    I had a chance to try regular 360 in person and to chat with Kinesis engineer. I went with Pro since I think not having cords is especially attractive in the split design. Non-pro version has a cord which is off the table (it can be replaced with the longer cord, since it’s just USB-C, but still). I commented on the different feel of switches, and he said that it’s more economical for them to use Gateron, quality-wise it should be the same. I think I’ll get used to them. Keycaps on Pro are different to allow light through. Since I’m unlikely to use light to preserve battery, I’ll replace then as well. In fact I’m planning to reuse some keycaps from my current Advantage 2. Biggest surprise that there is no forward-backward tilt. He said it’s hard to make it stable and tiltable in both dimensions. I guess I’ll have to come up with some custom tilting solution - same way I’m doing for Advantage 2 right now. I liked cushion pad a lot and going to get it to try it out, but not sure if I’m going to use it long-term or prefer more flat-out setup. I don’t like ESC being moved, but I do like that there are new extra programmable keys in the middle.
xiande04 4y ago
A keyboard with two thumb joysticks is something I've been dreaming about for a long time! If I could upvote this a thousand times I would.
Sakos 4y ago
I love the idea. Reminds me that I've always wondered why nobody ever made a keyboard with analog joysticks for your thumbs. Feels like keyboard design has stagnated because they reached a local maxima for being good enough decades ago.
- moffkalast 4y ago
  That's not the reason at all, the typical modern keyboard is just about exclusively driven by legacy compatibility. The keys are still in the exact same layout that was dictated by the mechanical design of typewriters centuries ago for fucks sake. Does anything still use the "pause" button? Why would anyone ever want to lock the numpad? Why are like half of the keys duplicated? These are real questions we should be asking. The real problem is that people have gotten used to something that barely worked, who then got catered to by manufacturers which lead to new people learning that same layout, perpetuating the same design into infinity because nobody wants to relearn typing. Driving cars with a wheel and pedals probably isn't optimal either, but it's all anyone ever learns to use so that's what ubiquitous. Language is the same.
  - dschil138 4y ago
    that's why it's so absolutely nuts that smartphone keyboards are just touchscreen versions of legacy keyboards. If there is any place absolutely ripe for new innovation and optimizations, it's there. But there are hardly any significantly-different options! (at least on iphone, can't speak to Android) Like, why can't I set my keyboard to delete the last word when I swipe left across the keyboard? There are a million low-hanging fruit things like that.
    - HALtheWise 4y ago
      At least on my Android Google keyboard, that exact feature exists (swiping left from the backspace key deletes words in a natural way). Similarly, swiping on the spacebar moves the cursor. More generally, swipe typing, aggressive autocorrect, and voice input are pretty novel and core to any modern phone keyboard. If you want to see really wild stuff, look at some of the Japanese phone keyboards, they're mostly based on slide gestures that can translate to a physical keyboard.
tianh 4y ago
Looks interesting, I already use a non-standard keyboard (Ducky 2 mini), which I really enjoy. It also uses another layer to access F-keys and arrow-keys for example. The only downside I experience is when programs do not allow re-mapping of keys and use arrow-keys. Happens often with browser games, which is really annoying. There sure is a way to get around this since Ducky 2 mini is really flexible, but I'm usually not so much invested to go down that path.
rwilson4 4y ago
I have a Kinesis Advantage 2 and the thumb clusters are my favorite part. I think I probably spend too much time optimizing the layout of those keys though. Like, Escape is really awkwardly placed in the default layout so I moved it to the right thumb cluster, but I was actually just thinking about moving it to the left cluster. Talk about micro-optimizations!
- itstooreal 4y ago
  I know that feeling. There’s also the hold/tap key thing where you don’t have to move the key physically. Between that and layers the keyboard is an infinite canvas for customizations.
  - microtonal 4y ago
    The default Kinesis firmware is fairly limited. It has what they call tap&hold, but it is too limited to be useful in practice. So, it’s mostly limited to simple remaps and macros. That does have the advantage that you don’t fall in the customization rabbit hole. That said, I made a KinT controller for my advantage, so that I can run QMK.
  - rwilson4 4y ago
    I played around with different tap&hold durations (how long you have to hold before it registers as a hold rather than a tap), but I just couldn't find a duration that matched my rhythm. I kept getting holds when I wanted taps (for short durations) or vice versa for longer durations. My current config uses tap&hold on two keys (home and end, which I don't use often anyway). Holding leads to "hyper" and "meh" which are two extra modifier keys (like control or alt/option/meta). I'm an emacs user so extra modifiers means I can basically store as many macros as I want!
- mongrelion 4y ago
  I have a keyboard with thumb clusters as well and more than micro-optimizations I see it as iterations until you find something that really suits your style :)
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crispyambulance 4y ago
Finally, a keyboard for those of us who have extra thumbs! I've long wanted to put my extra thumbs to work.
eecc 4y ago
Won’t you get RSI to your thumbs with this keyboard? How’s it better compared to a stenography keyboard?
yewenjie 4y ago
I like the idea for common words to be on a macro layer. I wonder if there is some simple way to generate one's personalized top 20 words or something.
- dschil138 4y ago
  yeah check out Benign Key Logger on github. If you go to my github profile (this keyboard is from me) I have a pinned repo there which you can use on the data you get from running that keylogger to get you things like your most common words. For instance I found out my second most common 5 letter word was "print" lol
dzogchen 4y ago
Is there a video of someone typing on this? I am intrigued.
DEDLINE 4y ago
Fulcrum, come in!
- ploorp 4y ago
  Yuhhh
User23 4y ago
Every keyboard designer needs to read John Napier’s superb book Hands. That this design considers opposability is a huge step in the right direction.
cicloid 4y ago
Is there a single hand keyboard that is supported and widely liked? I remember the frogpad but I believe that was discontinued
BigElephant 4y ago
Are there any brands/stores where I can buy a split keyboard with everything setup? I don't want to build everything from scratch.
- andremedeiros 4y ago
  Ergodox EZ isn’t the cheapest but it’s all setup for you. Hotswap switches too, so you can replace them later if you want to change the feel.
- myhf 4y ago
  There are many ready-to-go ones in this list: https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards
- galkk 4y ago
  Zsa sells prebuilt keyboards. Kinesics too. Reddit.com/r/mechmarket often sells diy builds. I bought my dactyl manuform there. Personally I’d suggest to go moonlander first, as zsa has built really great graphical configurator. Standard qmk graphical configurator is awful and you’ll almost immediately fall into code.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  Keebmaker make a few of the cooler ones off the shelf (ferris sweep, sofle, corne. I've heard rumours they'll make you a kyria but it's not on their site). https://keebmaker.com/collections/custom-keyboards https://keebmaker.com/collections/custom-keyboards
- itstooreal 4y ago
  Like just a normal QWERTY split? Kinesis makes a nice one that’s pretty affordable and even has LEDs :) https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/
snivelus 4y ago
Reminds me of my own handwired keyboard, https://github.com/herpiko/unk https://github.com/herpiko/unk
- dschil138 4y ago
  wow man, that is a polished project. Hope I get there one day
bmitc 4y ago
Where are the keys?
Sephr 4y ago
Personally I'm much more excited for the Naya Create[1]. It has a much lower learning curve and vastly better portability. 1. https://naya.tech/ https://naya.tech/
- deleted 4y ago
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- ec109685 4y ago
  Fun that it leads with this: “ Addressable RGB”
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  No concave key wells kills it (and the Fulcrum) for me. The only folks who really know how to nail ergo are Kinesis and maybe MoErgo (though I still haven't seen it shipped).
  - miniwark 4y ago
    For the curious, the links: https://kinesis-ergo.com/products/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/products/ https://www.moergo.com/ https://www.moergo.com/
    - microtonal 4y ago
      And let's not forget Maltron: https://www.maltron.com/store/p20/Maltron_L90_dual_hand_fully_ergonomic_%283D%29_keyboard_-_US_English.html https://www.maltron.com/store/p20/Maltron_L90_dual_hand_full... It looks ugly, but they were the original inventor of contoured keyboards I think.
      - tengwar2 4y ago
        I've had one for many years. It's my least favourite keyboard. As they rent them out, I would suggest trying one before buying, if possible. Part of my dislike might come from the MX Black switches they used at the time, and I gather that alternatives are available now. Another factor is their keycap profile and the placement of the switches, which mean that if your fingers get misaligned, you hit a gap between the keys. This is more irritating than it sounds. While not a criticism at the time it was built, it's also worth noting that there was (and is, I think) no layout customisation other than a choice between fixed layouts with a couple of switches on the underside of the keyboard. The case is vacuum-formed, which looks and feels cheap compared with modern competitors, and the bottom is glued on which would make repairs difficult (not that mine ceased to work).
0xCAP 4y ago
Still waiting for one of these to reach a sub 100 price point. Just can't get myself to spend 300 on a keyboard.
- mongrelion 4y ago
  There are plenty of people in the 2nd hand market parting ways with their dream of ergo and mech
- microtonal 4y ago
  If your work involves using a keyboard more than a few hours a day, getting an ergonomic keyboard is going to pay back those 300 big time in the long term. Wrist and finger pain are no fun. Though, I'd rather go for one of the pre-manufactured keyboards that had a decent amount of group studies into the design. All those boutique keyboards and designs used by less than 100 people may be fantastic or may destroy your hands, who knows? The problem is, you only find out after using a keyboard for a longer time. (A lot of folks on /r/ErgoMechBoards switch designs every few months, so the anecdata there is not great.) Designs like the Natural Keyboard or the Kinesis Contoured/Advantage have been around long enough to know what their long-term effects are.
no_wizard 4y ago
I wish I could get a mechanical keyboard version of the Microsoft ergonomic keyboard. That’s all I want
- MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago
  You can! Just keep looking; they are around. Maybe the Alice form factor?
itstooreal 4y ago
I love these kinds of projects. Each time I move to another keyboard I inevitably “lose” keys - numpad, then function keys. So I’m maybe a couple of iterations away before I’m ready for this ultimate challenge.
dcow 4y ago
Why don’t these chorded layered input methods ever take off?
- MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago
  Because you're tossing approachability out the window. Even for seasoned users, when you're typing with urgency or precision you miss having a clearly labeled, discreet key to press. And good luck using a friend's weird keyboard in a pinch. (I am a user of multiple weird keyboards.)
nextlevelwizard 4y ago
I want three things from my keyboard: - ergonomic split design - ISO layout - mechanical switches However this seems to be impossible to find. I can easily find any combination of any two of these, but not all three. Then if you start about thinking wireless on top - forget about it. On the other hand every week I see another one of these wildly impractical keyboards that people are making (and in fairness I've also constructed one - although I can't justify actually using it). Just feels bad man.
- nbernard 4y ago
  Depends on what you put under "ergonomic", but you could take a look at the Ultimate Hacking keyboard: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ (split, ISO layout & mechanical switches, not wireless however).
  - nextlevelwizard 4y ago
    I've seen this before, but at least in the order form pictures the ISO layout doesn't look any different from ANSI layout.
    - nbernard 4y ago
      AFAIK, the only difference (for the UHK keyboard, at least) is that, on the ISO layout, the left-shift key is narrower, in order to make space for an extra key. This is visible for instance if you compare their US (ANSI) and UK (ISO) layout.
      - nextlevelwizard 4y ago
        Maybe it is just me, but I don’t think a keyboard has ISO layout if it sticks with ANSI style enter - that pretty much is the defining feature
- antigirl 4y ago
  with ErgoDox, you can align the keys whatever way you please. It's split and has mechanical switches.
SergioAcoustic 4y ago
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Fastion 4y ago
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akinmadeakin 4y ago
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gooses 4y ago
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MrPatan 4y ago
Are there any wireless split keyboards? Google only finds split-but-still-attached keyboards, I want two independent elements, both wireless. Is there such a thing?
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  First one that comes to mind is corne wireless. Look into keyboards that use ZMK firmware, as it supports this very nicely.

177 points by zdw 4y ago

Like a compromise between an ergo board and a data hand. The motivation for this sounds convincing. My problem is that I’m not willing or able to put the time into learning a new layout, with or without a chording aspect.

deleted 4y ago
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Firmwarrior 4y ago
I think this is a super cool keyboard, but if I were going to learn a chorded keyboard, I'd probably go all in on the type steganographers use to type 300 WPM
- capableweb 4y ago
  You could always use a "normal" (QWERTY) keyboard for steno if you'd like, some people had success with Plover (http://www.openstenoproject.org/ http://www.openstenoproject.org/) for doing this. You can even try it in the browser: http://www.openstenoproject.org/demo/ http://www.openstenoproject.org/demo/ What would be really interesting would be a keyboard specifically for programming. Chords that can be customized to fit your language, would make a lot of sense. Integrate some ideas from things like Paraedit et al, and you could probably get up to crazy speeds in editing and writing really quickly.
  - jrockway 4y ago
    I tried this, but honestly the keyswitches are awfully heavy when you are pressing more than 2 of them at once. I ended up half-building a steno keyboard with lighter switches for this reason... half-building because I started during the pandemic, no microcontrollers I wanted were available, and then I forgot about the project until ... just now. Someday though.
    - worthless-trash 4y ago
      I have seen people refit the Uni steno keyboards with lighter springs, it looks like the easiest way to get started.
    - brokenmachine 4y ago
      Ergodox is actually a very usable design for steno.
- dschil138 4y ago
  I don't really think it's fair to call it a chorded keyboard. It does have chords, but they are mostly optional and there for convenience. Every alpha letter has it's own key. Some are on a second layer, but that layer is also "one-shot" so you don't even need to chord to use it, like you do with typing capital letters with shift, for instance.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    > if I were going to learn a chorded keyboard I'd want it to be one handed so I could do something else (turn pages, move mouse) with the other hand. also, it would have to promise longevity and ubiquity, if I'm going to learn it, I want it to pay off in extended usage
  - dcow 4y ago
    How do you access the alpha2 layer? Edit: looks like you toggle it with your right thumb? That seems like a lot of thumb presses or more key strokes per word. How do you know which layer is active when you return between sessions?
    - dschil138 4y ago
      yeah the right thumb is a "one-shot" key to go to the second layer. So you press it, and then only whatever key you press next is on the second layer. So you're always on the fist layer unless you just pressed that key. It does end up being (slightly) more keypresses, but it's built on the idea that 1.) two comfortable keypresses are easier than one uncomfortable keypress and 2.) our thumbs are already absurdly under-utilized on current keyboards.
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  Stenography is pretty difficult. It's more complicated than simply "chorded keyboard" might imply. Going "all in" on stenography is a very significant time investment. Much more than what you'd think. It's not like a normal keyboard where when you start you're just slow, but you know how to type every word. You won't even know how to type syllables/words that you haven't learned yet. I've had a couple of tries but never got past the beginner stage, and there's many, many words that I have no idea how to type.
angry_moose 4y ago
I tried it to a lesser extent (Keyboardio 100) and stuck with it just long enough to determine it would be great if I never used any other computers with a standard keyboard. After 2 weeks I could barely even type on my laptop anymore - I just couldn't hold both layouts in my head. Numbers, punctuation, and special keys were completely different; even though letters were "the same" they moved enough I was making a ton of typos. I came to the conclusion I wasn't willing to buy an additional keyboard for my work computer and give up my laptop so I ended up selling it.
- mistersys 4y ago
  I had a similar experience after switching to DVORAK as a nerdy teenager, however I found by just leaving my smartphone on QWERTY, I'm able to switch and still type 40 - 50wpm with minimal practice on a real keyboard. I'm more like 100wpm on DVORAK. Practicing both layouts a little may make it possible to keep both modes in your head, but I don't know if a completely different input mode would make this harder.
- Arainach 4y ago
  Interesting. I switched to a custom ergo layout (ZSA Moonlander) but my traditional QWERTY laptops are sufficiently different that I have no problems going back and forth between that and my desktops.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  From what I hear the first step is learning the new layout and the next step is being able to switch between the two. Though... how often are you using other peoples keyboards? I hear this complaint a lot and I wonder about it.
  - jrockway 4y ago
    I never use other people's computers (think about where their fingers have been), so this would never be a concern for me. I use an Ergodox and it's a little rough switching to the laptop (how can people hold their hands so close together?), but I can do it. I still use QWERTY though, with a bunch of local tweaks for non-letter characters. I would say that if you type fast enough for as long as you desire without pain, the cost of learning a new keyboard layout is a questionable investment. But, if you have hand pain, you should probably work on resolving that immediately, or pain may become a disability. (I followed my own advice, my right pinky used to hurt after a day of work. Moving all the important symbols away from that pinky key, probably most notably backspace, cleared everything up. Many more years of typing stuff into a computer in my future.)
larusso 4y ago
A couple of years ago I wanted to switch to an Ortholiner. I used magic keyboards until then. During the first weeks I actually realized that I never used my ten fingers. I was reasonable fast but my hands where more moving over the keyboard like a piano player. So I went one step back and bought a normal Lay-out mechanical keyboard and started to learn the proper 10 finger touch typing through several websites. I‘m still not mega fast but depending on the things I write I can be quite fast. While learning this and also tinkering with my keyboard firmware to add more comfortable shortcuts etc I lost the ability to write fast on my macbook keyboard. Every now and then when I have to use it, I slip into the old typing style. But it doesn’t feel as good anymore. I‘m on the same side here and would be very conservative with my time to spend it on this very special gear. And I only spend time and money on the normal QWERTY board :)

c54 4y ago

Interest concept. Are there any videos of someone using one ? I couldn’t find any on youtube

whitemary 4y ago

Why would I invest the time, effort, and incalculable risk involved in adopting and depending on a boutique experimental keyboard system? Why do all keyboard projects either mindlessly adhere to antique conventions or hopelessly diverge into zaniness? Why is it so difficult to find a multi-platform split keyboard with no gimmicks, standard layouts, and sane defaults. I will buy a back-stock of 10 when I find it. The closest thing so far is the Mistel MD770 so I own 2 of them.

morjom 4y ago
Are moonlander and ergodox too zany or too out of the default? I used a MD600 for a while, and found that keyboards that are just qwerties chopped in half diagonally in the middle-ish aren't really taking advantage of the splitness enough, so ergodox or a dactyl seemed better for me.
- pletnes 4y ago
  My moonlander took a few days/weeks of getting used to, but it’s not very «far out» in my mind. The biggest hurdle is getting used to the ortholinear keys, but this quickly feels much better. Would warmly recommend to anyone spending much time in front of a keyboard, really.
  - zwayhowder 4y ago
    The biggest hurdle is wondering why your space bar is no longer working on a normal keyboard, and realising that you are actually smashing the alt key :D But seriously, I love my Moonlander(s) and have no regrets buying them.
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      > The biggest hurdle is wondering why your space bar is no longer working on a normal keyboard, and realising that you are actually smashing the alt key :D This hasn't really been an issue for me after the first week or two of use. My muscle memory adjusts based on which keyboard I'm using. Typing this on my MBP's laptop keyboard while I work using my Moonlander day-to-day. > But seriously, I love my Moonlander(s) and have no regrets buying them. Also got a second for the office because of how much I love it. Only minor regrets because spending over 1k on two keyboards (after caps, etc) is a tough pill to swallow.

Waterluvian 4y ago

Hyper optimized HIDs are a fascinating curiosity to me. I feel like a lot of the time they’re meant to fulfill a daydream of optimization that oftentimes never gets realized. It’s like stenography, the cost of deviating from the norm is high but very valuable for specific use cases. Or maybe I’m just projecting my Jr. Engineer days where I spent silly amounts of time optimizing my text editor with dreams of it making me one with my computer.

dschil138 4y ago
I totally agree with you in theory but for this specific board, can tell you that it improved my typing speed ~10wpm, and completely eliminated my RSI issues. When I say I had major RSI issues, I mean I once had to spend 6 weeks typing with only my left hand bc the right hurt so bad. So it was worth it just for getting rid of that. But in general I totally agree with you. I think about that a lot when optimizing like VSCode settings, for example. Like "this isn't really productive work here. it just feels like it."
mosquitobiten 4y ago
> fulfill a daydream of optimization that oftentimes never gets realized with so many things, creating something like this maybe you start like that but end up realizing you just wanted to express yourself. challenging the norm is a given and popularity is just a plus.
keybored 4y ago
On the one hand, yes… no, in fact three things: 1. On the one hand, yes. It can be very idealistic. You might imagine that you will achieve a new level of productivity where you will look down on your previous level and think: “How did I ever get anything done down there?” 2. Computer input optimization often gets derided with some variation on the “my typing speed is not the bottleneck when writing code”. But first of all, productivity in the immediate sense might not be the point: the point might be ergonomics and health. And it sounds silly to get health issues by just sitting and typing stuff and yet… well, it does happen a lot, apparently.[1] I have done some optimizations with regards to my keyboard but the holy grail for me (I feel like) is stenography (which you mentioned). But I fear that I’m not the kind of person that could devote something like on average 30 minutes a day for multiple months to that. 3. Things like optimizing my setup is what makes me excited. So if I can keep my idealism in check then the journey itself will have been worth the effort. [1] You’re screwed either way: if you’re in a physical profession (a “trade”) you wear your body out. If you are in an office job you either don’t use your body enough, get some kind of ergonomic problem, or get burnout from being too much in your head.

vl 4y ago

Very cool project! I’m a big fan of vertical key rows and split design. So much so that I pulled the trigger and ordered new Kinesis Advantage 360 Pro - currently I’m a happy user of Advantage2.

microtonal 4y ago
Happy for you that you ordered a 360 Pro, the regular 360 firmware is still extremely buggy. The keycaps on the 360 Pro are quite 'meh' though. I replaced them by Kinesis PBT blanks. Still don't like the Gateron Browns as much as the Cherry Browns or Silent Reds on the KA2.
- vl 4y ago
  I had a chance to try regular 360 in person and to chat with Kinesis engineer. I went with Pro since I think not having cords is especially attractive in the split design. Non-pro version has a cord which is off the table (it can be replaced with the longer cord, since it’s just USB-C, but still). I commented on the different feel of switches, and he said that it’s more economical for them to use Gateron, quality-wise it should be the same. I think I’ll get used to them. Keycaps on Pro are different to allow light through. Since I’m unlikely to use light to preserve battery, I’ll replace then as well. In fact I’m planning to reuse some keycaps from my current Advantage 2. Biggest surprise that there is no forward-backward tilt. He said it’s hard to make it stable and tiltable in both dimensions. I guess I’ll have to come up with some custom tilting solution - same way I’m doing for Advantage 2 right now. I liked cushion pad a lot and going to get it to try it out, but not sure if I’m going to use it long-term or prefer more flat-out setup. I don’t like ESC being moved, but I do like that there are new extra programmable keys in the middle.

xiande04 4y ago

A keyboard with two thumb joysticks is something I've been dreaming about for a long time! If I could upvote this a thousand times I would.

Sakos 4y ago

I love the idea. Reminds me that I've always wondered why nobody ever made a keyboard with analog joysticks for your thumbs. Feels like keyboard design has stagnated because they reached a local maxima for being good enough decades ago.

moffkalast 4y ago
That's not the reason at all, the typical modern keyboard is just about exclusively driven by legacy compatibility. The keys are still in the exact same layout that was dictated by the mechanical design of typewriters centuries ago for fucks sake. Does anything still use the "pause" button? Why would anyone ever want to lock the numpad? Why are like half of the keys duplicated? These are real questions we should be asking. The real problem is that people have gotten used to something that barely worked, who then got catered to by manufacturers which lead to new people learning that same layout, perpetuating the same design into infinity because nobody wants to relearn typing. Driving cars with a wheel and pedals probably isn't optimal either, but it's all anyone ever learns to use so that's what ubiquitous. Language is the same.
- dschil138 4y ago
  that's why it's so absolutely nuts that smartphone keyboards are just touchscreen versions of legacy keyboards. If there is any place absolutely ripe for new innovation and optimizations, it's there. But there are hardly any significantly-different options! (at least on iphone, can't speak to Android) Like, why can't I set my keyboard to delete the last word when I swipe left across the keyboard? There are a million low-hanging fruit things like that.
  - HALtheWise 4y ago
    At least on my Android Google keyboard, that exact feature exists (swiping left from the backspace key deletes words in a natural way). Similarly, swiping on the spacebar moves the cursor. More generally, swipe typing, aggressive autocorrect, and voice input are pretty novel and core to any modern phone keyboard. If you want to see really wild stuff, look at some of the Japanese phone keyboards, they're mostly based on slide gestures that can translate to a physical keyboard.

tianh 4y ago

Looks interesting, I already use a non-standard keyboard (Ducky 2 mini), which I really enjoy. It also uses another layer to access F-keys and arrow-keys for example. The only downside I experience is when programs do not allow re-mapping of keys and use arrow-keys. Happens often with browser games, which is really annoying. There sure is a way to get around this since Ducky 2 mini is really flexible, but I'm usually not so much invested to go down that path.

rwilson4 4y ago

I have a Kinesis Advantage 2 and the thumb clusters are my favorite part. I think I probably spend too much time optimizing the layout of those keys though. Like, Escape is really awkwardly placed in the default layout so I moved it to the right thumb cluster, but I was actually just thinking about moving it to the left cluster. Talk about micro-optimizations!

itstooreal 4y ago
I know that feeling. There’s also the hold/tap key thing where you don’t have to move the key physically. Between that and layers the keyboard is an infinite canvas for customizations.
- microtonal 4y ago
  The default Kinesis firmware is fairly limited. It has what they call tap&hold, but it is too limited to be useful in practice. So, it’s mostly limited to simple remaps and macros. That does have the advantage that you don’t fall in the customization rabbit hole. That said, I made a KinT controller for my advantage, so that I can run QMK.
- rwilson4 4y ago
  I played around with different tap&hold durations (how long you have to hold before it registers as a hold rather than a tap), but I just couldn't find a duration that matched my rhythm. I kept getting holds when I wanted taps (for short durations) or vice versa for longer durations. My current config uses tap&hold on two keys (home and end, which I don't use often anyway). Holding leads to "hyper" and "meh" which are two extra modifier keys (like control or alt/option/meta). I'm an emacs user so extra modifiers means I can basically store as many macros as I want!
mongrelion 4y ago
I have a keyboard with thumb clusters as well and more than micro-optimizations I see it as iterations until you find something that really suits your style :)

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crispyambulance 4y ago

Finally, a keyboard for those of us who have extra thumbs! I've long wanted to put my extra thumbs to work.

eecc 4y ago

Won’t you get RSI to your thumbs with this keyboard? How’s it better compared to a stenography keyboard?

yewenjie 4y ago

I like the idea for common words to be on a macro layer. I wonder if there is some simple way to generate one's personalized top 20 words or something.

dschil138 4y ago
yeah check out Benign Key Logger on github. If you go to my github profile (this keyboard is from me) I have a pinned repo there which you can use on the data you get from running that keylogger to get you things like your most common words. For instance I found out my second most common 5 letter word was "print" lol

dzogchen 4y ago

Is there a video of someone typing on this? I am intrigued.

DEDLINE 4y ago

Fulcrum, come in!

ploorp 4y ago
Yuhhh

User23 4y ago

Every keyboard designer needs to read John Napier’s superb book Hands. That this design considers opposability is a huge step in the right direction.

cicloid 4y ago

Is there a single hand keyboard that is supported and widely liked? I remember the frogpad but I believe that was discontinued

BigElephant 4y ago

Are there any brands/stores where I can buy a split keyboard with everything setup? I don't want to build everything from scratch.

andremedeiros 4y ago
Ergodox EZ isn’t the cheapest but it’s all setup for you. Hotswap switches too, so you can replace them later if you want to change the feel.
myhf 4y ago
There are many ready-to-go ones in this list: https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards
galkk 4y ago
Zsa sells prebuilt keyboards. Kinesics too. Reddit.com/r/mechmarket often sells diy builds. I bought my dactyl manuform there. Personally I’d suggest to go moonlander first, as zsa has built really great graphical configurator. Standard qmk graphical configurator is awful and you’ll almost immediately fall into code.
LAC-Tech 4y ago
Keebmaker make a few of the cooler ones off the shelf (ferris sweep, sofle, corne. I've heard rumours they'll make you a kyria but it's not on their site). https://keebmaker.com/collections/custom-keyboards https://keebmaker.com/collections/custom-keyboards
itstooreal 4y ago
Like just a normal QWERTY split? Kinesis makes a nice one that’s pretty affordable and even has LEDs :) https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/

snivelus 4y ago

Reminds me of my own handwired keyboard, https://github.com/herpiko/unk https://github.com/herpiko/unk

dschil138 4y ago
wow man, that is a polished project. Hope I get there one day

bmitc 4y ago

Where are the keys?

Sephr 4y ago

Personally I'm much more excited for the Naya Create[1]. It has a much lower learning curve and vastly better portability. 1. https://naya.tech/ https://naya.tech/

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ec109685 4y ago
Fun that it leads with this: “ Addressable RGB”
emptysongglass 4y ago
No concave key wells kills it (and the Fulcrum) for me. The only folks who really know how to nail ergo are Kinesis and maybe MoErgo (though I still haven't seen it shipped).
- miniwark 4y ago
  For the curious, the links: https://kinesis-ergo.com/products/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/products/ https://www.moergo.com/ https://www.moergo.com/
  - microtonal 4y ago
    And let's not forget Maltron: https://www.maltron.com/store/p20/Maltron_L90_dual_hand_fully_ergonomic_%283D%29_keyboard_-_US_English.html https://www.maltron.com/store/p20/Maltron_L90_dual_hand_full... It looks ugly, but they were the original inventor of contoured keyboards I think.
    - tengwar2 4y ago
      I've had one for many years. It's my least favourite keyboard. As they rent them out, I would suggest trying one before buying, if possible. Part of my dislike might come from the MX Black switches they used at the time, and I gather that alternatives are available now. Another factor is their keycap profile and the placement of the switches, which mean that if your fingers get misaligned, you hit a gap between the keys. This is more irritating than it sounds. While not a criticism at the time it was built, it's also worth noting that there was (and is, I think) no layout customisation other than a choice between fixed layouts with a couple of switches on the underside of the keyboard. The case is vacuum-formed, which looks and feels cheap compared with modern competitors, and the bottom is glued on which would make repairs difficult (not that mine ceased to work).

0xCAP 4y ago

Still waiting for one of these to reach a sub 100 price point. Just can't get myself to spend 300 on a keyboard.

mongrelion 4y ago
There are plenty of people in the 2nd hand market parting ways with their dream of ergo and mech
microtonal 4y ago
If your work involves using a keyboard more than a few hours a day, getting an ergonomic keyboard is going to pay back those 300 big time in the long term. Wrist and finger pain are no fun. Though, I'd rather go for one of the pre-manufactured keyboards that had a decent amount of group studies into the design. All those boutique keyboards and designs used by less than 100 people may be fantastic or may destroy your hands, who knows? The problem is, you only find out after using a keyboard for a longer time. (A lot of folks on /r/ErgoMechBoards switch designs every few months, so the anecdata there is not great.) Designs like the Natural Keyboard or the Kinesis Contoured/Advantage have been around long enough to know what their long-term effects are.

no_wizard 4y ago

I wish I could get a mechanical keyboard version of the Microsoft ergonomic keyboard. That’s all I want

MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago
You can! Just keep looking; they are around. Maybe the Alice form factor?

itstooreal 4y ago

I love these kinds of projects. Each time I move to another keyboard I inevitably “lose” keys - numpad, then function keys. So I’m maybe a couple of iterations away before I’m ready for this ultimate challenge.

dcow 4y ago

Why don’t these chorded layered input methods ever take off?

MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago
Because you're tossing approachability out the window. Even for seasoned users, when you're typing with urgency or precision you miss having a clearly labeled, discreet key to press. And good luck using a friend's weird keyboard in a pinch. (I am a user of multiple weird keyboards.)

nextlevelwizard 4y ago

I want three things from my keyboard: - ergonomic split design - ISO layout - mechanical switches However this seems to be impossible to find. I can easily find any combination of any two of these, but not all three. Then if you start about thinking wireless on top - forget about it. On the other hand every week I see another one of these wildly impractical keyboards that people are making (and in fairness I've also constructed one - although I can't justify actually using it). Just feels bad man.

nbernard 4y ago
Depends on what you put under "ergonomic", but you could take a look at the Ultimate Hacking keyboard: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ (split, ISO layout & mechanical switches, not wireless however).
- nextlevelwizard 4y ago
  I've seen this before, but at least in the order form pictures the ISO layout doesn't look any different from ANSI layout.
  - nbernard 4y ago
    AFAIK, the only difference (for the UHK keyboard, at least) is that, on the ISO layout, the left-shift key is narrower, in order to make space for an extra key. This is visible for instance if you compare their US (ANSI) and UK (ISO) layout.
    - nextlevelwizard 4y ago
      Maybe it is just me, but I don’t think a keyboard has ISO layout if it sticks with ANSI style enter - that pretty much is the defining feature
antigirl 4y ago
with ErgoDox, you can align the keys whatever way you please. It's split and has mechanical switches.

SergioAcoustic 4y ago

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Fastion 4y ago

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akinmadeakin 4y ago

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gooses 4y ago

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MrPatan 4y ago

Are there any wireless split keyboards? Google only finds split-but-still-attached keyboards, I want two independent elements, both wireless. Is there such a thing?

brokenmachine 4y ago
First one that comes to mind is corne wireless. Look into keyboards that use ZMK firmware, as it supports this very nicely.