9 ms·

Moreover, why gas instead of electric backup?

by pitaj 4y ago

djbusby 4y ago
Maybe, like me, they've got existing gas heaters/boilers installed. When you get a heat-pump you need the backup for really cold (-20c). So you just leave the existing one in for that case.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
letitbeirie 4y ago
Depending on where the furnace is located, it can be cheaper and have a lower carbon footprint. In my area of the US for example, gas costs 32￠/therm, which equates to 1.1￠/kWh. Electricity on the other hand costs 6.4￠-10.9￠/kWh (depending on time of day), and while a third of it comes from renewables, another third of it comes from coal, so it ends up being net worse for the environment than just burning the gas.
- jupp0r 4y ago
  How long will you operate this? Coal will be gone in a few years.
  - philwelch 4y ago
    Even with gas it’s more efficient to burn the gas for heat yourself than for the power plant to burn the gas to operate a turbine which you then use to generate resistive heat.
    - jupp0r 4y ago
      Why are you comparing electricity production via fossil fuels and not via renewables.
      - philwelch 4y ago
        If your electricity is actually generated by renewables that’s another situation entirely.
        jupp0r 4y ago
        If this does not happen in the next 15 years in developed countries then we have a giant problem. I understand that installing a gas heater right now might be a reasonable personal decision, but I don't understand how one could argue it's the right thing to do from a climate protection angle.
        philwelch 4y ago
        It's the right thing to do from a climate protection angle if a significant proportion of your electricity is generated by natural gas, which is what I said to begin with.
        jupp0r 4y ago
        It is, but only temporarily. Will you switch it over to a heat pump immediately after the cut off point is reached or will you operate till the end of its life before you replace it? If you keep operating it, will it really emit less over its lifetime than switching to a heat pump right now? Making the assumption that today's electricity mix is a steady state is flawed.
kkfx 4y ago
> Moreover, why gas instead of electric backup? Hum, I do not know in you country but here in France the maximum you can get from the grid is 36kW, 12kW per phase, 3 phases. And while the electricity is still far cheaper than in Germany if you try to heat a classic badly insulated home (who have a typical 34-40kW gas heating) with electricity you final bill will be a bit astronomical....
- lazide 4y ago
  US new construction is typically 200 amp (though some go up to 400 amp) 240v ‘split phase’ (so most branch circuits will be 120v). It’s technically single phase though. So 48-96kw, technically.
  - kkfx 4y ago
    So it's more than here for private homes (you can get much more, but only for business) BUT even with enough amps how much it cost per kWh in mean? Here we are from 9.7 cent/kWh for the cheapest hours, 15 cent/kWh for the mean, 67.12 for the most expensive hours of most expensive days (22 days per year in winter, the coldest essentially) i.e. https://www.fournisseurs-electricite.com/edf/tarifs/tempo https://www.fournisseurs-electricite.com/edf/tarifs/tempo for business in the "cheap" segment (not more than 36kW) it's from 21 to 25 cent per kWh.
    - lazide 4y ago
      CAlifornia is stupid expensive - averaging over $.50/kwh. Other areas are cheaper - Washington and Oregon have a lot of hydro power, and it is usually $.12/kwh or less there.
      - secabeen 4y ago
        This is changing. Peak cost during summer afternoons is definitely $0.50+/kWh, but most other times are in the $0.20-0.30/kWh range, due to the broad deployment of solar and lower nighttime demand.
- 4y ago

Moreover, why gas instead of electric backup?

by pitaj 4y ago

Moreover, why gas instead of electric backup?

Maybe, like me, they've got existing gas heaters/boilers installed. When you get a heat-pump you need the backup for really cold (-20c). So you just leave the existing one in for that case.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

letitbeirie 4y ago

Depending on where the furnace is located, it can be cheaper and have a lower carbon footprint. In my area of the US for example, gas costs 32￠/therm, which equates to 1.1￠/kWh. Electricity on the other hand costs 6.4￠-10.9￠/kWh (depending on time of day), and while a third of it comes from renewables, another third of it comes from coal, so it ends up being net worse for the environment than just burning the gas.

jupp0r 4y ago
How long will you operate this? Coal will be gone in a few years.
- philwelch 4y ago
  Even with gas it’s more efficient to burn the gas for heat yourself than for the power plant to burn the gas to operate a turbine which you then use to generate resistive heat.
  - jupp0r 4y ago
    Why are you comparing electricity production via fossil fuels and not via renewables.
    - philwelch 4y ago
      If your electricity is actually generated by renewables that’s another situation entirely.
      - jupp0r 4y ago
        If this does not happen in the next 15 years in developed countries then we have a giant problem. I understand that installing a gas heater right now might be a reasonable personal decision, but I don't understand how one could argue it's the right thing to do from a climate protection angle.
        philwelch 4y ago
        It's the right thing to do from a climate protection angle if a significant proportion of your electricity is generated by natural gas, which is what I said to begin with.
        jupp0r 4y ago
        It is, but only temporarily. Will you switch it over to a heat pump immediately after the cut off point is reached or will you operate till the end of its life before you replace it? If you keep operating it, will it really emit less over its lifetime than switching to a heat pump right now? Making the assumption that today's electricity mix is a steady state is flawed.

kkfx 4y ago

> Moreover, why gas instead of electric backup? Hum, I do not know in you country but here in France the maximum you can get from the grid is 36kW, 12kW per phase, 3 phases. And while the electricity is still far cheaper than in Germany if you try to heat a classic badly insulated home (who have a typical 34-40kW gas heating) with electricity you final bill will be a bit astronomical....

lazide 4y ago
US new construction is typically 200 amp (though some go up to 400 amp) 240v ‘split phase’ (so most branch circuits will be 120v). It’s technically single phase though. So 48-96kw, technically.
- kkfx 4y ago
  So it's more than here for private homes (you can get much more, but only for business) BUT even with enough amps how much it cost per kWh in mean? Here we are from 9.7 cent/kWh for the cheapest hours, 15 cent/kWh for the mean, 67.12 for the most expensive hours of most expensive days (22 days per year in winter, the coldest essentially) i.e. https://www.fournisseurs-electricite.com/edf/tarifs/tempo https://www.fournisseurs-electricite.com/edf/tarifs/tempo for business in the "cheap" segment (not more than 36kW) it's from 21 to 25 cent per kWh.
  - lazide 4y ago
    CAlifornia is stupid expensive - averaging over $.50/kwh. Other areas are cheaper - Washington and Oregon have a lot of hydro power, and it is usually $.12/kwh or less there.
    - secabeen 4y ago
      This is changing. Peak cost during summer afternoons is definitely $0.50+/kWh, but most other times are in the $0.20-0.30/kWh range, due to the broad deployment of solar and lower nighttime demand.
4y ago