8 ms·

Covid: Germany ends obligatory masks for public transit

36 points by petodo 4y ago

glofish 4y ago
[flagged]
- camillomiller 4y ago
  Seems like you’re the one who wants to believe. The study you link does NOT say that.
  - glofish 4y ago
    What is your interpretation of the following quote then? > The pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. > There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection. Who is the "believer" in your opinion? The one that after reading the above says "mask don't work" or the person that says "but, masks might still work"
    - haswell 4y ago
      It seems very problematic to provide those quotes without the immediately preceding context: > There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. > Who is the "believer" in your opinion? The one that after reading the above says "mask don't work" or the person that says "but, masks might still work" In the face of known uncertainty, the only conclusions one can draw are ”masks might work” and “masks might not work”. The person who concludes “masks don’t work” based on this analysis alone did not understand the analysis. The conclusion seems far closer to “we don’t really know”, than “masks do nothing”.
      - fdsalkfdsajl 4y ago
        [flagged]
        haswell 4y ago
        The hyperbole of that designation aside, it is still just as likely to be directionally correct as it was before. Even if this meta-analysis was available during the peak of the pandemic, refusing to wear masks while knowing there is as much reason to believe they work as there is to believe they don’t still paints a pretty unflattering picture of the person making that decision, considering the relatively low cost (across all notions of cost) of just taking the precaution until we have more solid info. This remains true even if we prove down the road that masks did/do nothing. That isn’t to say that I endorse the social behavior or the absolutism displayed by both “sides” of this topic. That’s a separate issue that is orthogonal to the pandemic itself, and continues to unfold.
        dent9876543 4y ago
        Perhaps. But perhaps by not masking, it shows the individual to be relatively un-cautious. That’s really useful to know if you happen to be on the other end of the vulnerable spectrum.
        haswell 4y ago
        I'm not sure that I understand what you are arguing here. Assuming there is no masking policy, the act of not wearing a mask is no longer a signal that someone is more or less cautious than someone else. This is assuming that accompanying that policy is a general public sentiment that masks are not effective. The act of wearing a mask despite no policy would indicate greater caution, but the inverse is not obviously true. It seems the existence of a masking policy, public knowledge about the implications of exposure, and the presumption that masks provide some mitigation are all things that are required to then make some conclusion about whether or not the unmasked person across the room is relatively un-cautious.
  - glofish 4y ago
    The lead author of the study I have cited has spoken, he said the following: https://maryannedemasi.substack.com/p/exclusive-lead-author-of-new-cochrane https://maryannedemasi.substack.com/p/exclusive-lead-author-... > JEFFERSON: Well, it’s an update from our November 2020 review and the evidence really didn't change from 2020 to 2023. >There’s still no evidence that masks are effective during a pandemic. Do you still maintain that the cited work is not explicitly saying that there is no evidence that masks work?
- Y_Y 4y ago
  > There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. The pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection.
- chki 4y ago
  Of the 78 studies that this Cochrane report looks at only 2 were studying COVID-19.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- unity1001 4y ago
  Masks have worked in Asia for decades now. They "don't work" only because a certain spolitical segment in the US has made it into a political dog whistle. And they "don't work" only in the US for that reason.
  - petodo 4y ago
    who wears masks in Asia for sickness besides Japan? most of the masked people in Asia wear them to protect themselves from extremely polluted air where these masks can work against wrote big particles compared to viruses and obviously people in clean Europe and relatively clean US no need to wear them to breathe clean air, which is luxury especially in China and India
    - unity1001 4y ago
      Masks are used widely in China, SK, Japan, Vietnam and various Asian countries in the case of outbreaks including minor ones.
      - petodo 4y ago
        No, they are not. I've lived in China for years and only very small minority of people worn masks against pollution prior COVID. I've also travelled all around Vietnam for weeks and it was extremely rare to see someone wearing mask prior COVID (even more rare than in China). So stop this misinformation about decades of their use in Asia (outside Japan) for health reasons. You sound like someone who never been to Asia and just repeats nonsense read somewhere.
nicbou 4y ago
There was virtually zero enforcement in Berlin. On some lines half of passengers had no masks in the last week. So yeah.
- petodo 4y ago
  I think this is more about long distance trains and buses, local public transport not crossing state border was already following various local rules which were usually already relaxed.
- mqus 4y ago
  funnily, I encountered an inspection in a tram where they did check for masks, and masks only. They wrote up personal details of the ones who did not have masks on them. But this was the only time since the whole thing began and it was this year (when it was arguably already over). So yeah.

36 points by petodo 4y ago

glofish 4y ago

[flagged]

camillomiller 4y ago
Seems like you’re the one who wants to believe. The study you link does NOT say that.
- glofish 4y ago
  What is your interpretation of the following quote then? > The pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. > There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection. Who is the "believer" in your opinion? The one that after reading the above says "mask don't work" or the person that says "but, masks might still work"
  - haswell 4y ago
    It seems very problematic to provide those quotes without the immediately preceding context: > There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. > Who is the "believer" in your opinion? The one that after reading the above says "mask don't work" or the person that says "but, masks might still work" In the face of known uncertainty, the only conclusions one can draw are ”masks might work” and “masks might not work”. The person who concludes “masks don’t work” based on this analysis alone did not understand the analysis. The conclusion seems far closer to “we don’t really know”, than “masks do nothing”.
    - fdsalkfdsajl 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - haswell 4y ago
        The hyperbole of that designation aside, it is still just as likely to be directionally correct as it was before. Even if this meta-analysis was available during the peak of the pandemic, refusing to wear masks while knowing there is as much reason to believe they work as there is to believe they don’t still paints a pretty unflattering picture of the person making that decision, considering the relatively low cost (across all notions of cost) of just taking the precaution until we have more solid info. This remains true even if we prove down the road that masks did/do nothing. That isn’t to say that I endorse the social behavior or the absolutism displayed by both “sides” of this topic. That’s a separate issue that is orthogonal to the pandemic itself, and continues to unfold.
        dent9876543 4y ago
        Perhaps. But perhaps by not masking, it shows the individual to be relatively un-cautious. That’s really useful to know if you happen to be on the other end of the vulnerable spectrum.
        haswell 4y ago
        I'm not sure that I understand what you are arguing here. Assuming there is no masking policy, the act of not wearing a mask is no longer a signal that someone is more or less cautious than someone else. This is assuming that accompanying that policy is a general public sentiment that masks are not effective. The act of wearing a mask despite no policy would indicate greater caution, but the inverse is not obviously true. It seems the existence of a masking policy, public knowledge about the implications of exposure, and the presumption that masks provide some mitigation are all things that are required to then make some conclusion about whether or not the unmasked person across the room is relatively un-cautious.
- glofish 4y ago
  The lead author of the study I have cited has spoken, he said the following: https://maryannedemasi.substack.com/p/exclusive-lead-author-of-new-cochrane https://maryannedemasi.substack.com/p/exclusive-lead-author-... > JEFFERSON: Well, it’s an update from our November 2020 review and the evidence really didn't change from 2020 to 2023. >There’s still no evidence that masks are effective during a pandemic. Do you still maintain that the cited work is not explicitly saying that there is no evidence that masks work?
Y_Y 4y ago
> There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. The pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection.
chki 4y ago
Of the 78 studies that this Cochrane report looks at only 2 were studying COVID-19.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
unity1001 4y ago
Masks have worked in Asia for decades now. They "don't work" only because a certain spolitical segment in the US has made it into a political dog whistle. And they "don't work" only in the US for that reason.
- petodo 4y ago
  who wears masks in Asia for sickness besides Japan? most of the masked people in Asia wear them to protect themselves from extremely polluted air where these masks can work against wrote big particles compared to viruses and obviously people in clean Europe and relatively clean US no need to wear them to breathe clean air, which is luxury especially in China and India
  - unity1001 4y ago
    Masks are used widely in China, SK, Japan, Vietnam and various Asian countries in the case of outbreaks including minor ones.
    - petodo 4y ago
      No, they are not. I've lived in China for years and only very small minority of people worn masks against pollution prior COVID. I've also travelled all around Vietnam for weeks and it was extremely rare to see someone wearing mask prior COVID (even more rare than in China). So stop this misinformation about decades of their use in Asia (outside Japan) for health reasons. You sound like someone who never been to Asia and just repeats nonsense read somewhere.

nicbou 4y ago

There was virtually zero enforcement in Berlin. On some lines half of passengers had no masks in the last week. So yeah.

petodo 4y ago
I think this is more about long distance trains and buses, local public transport not crossing state border was already following various local rules which were usually already relaxed.
mqus 4y ago
funnily, I encountered an inspection in a tram where they did check for masks, and masks only. They wrote up personal details of the ones who did not have masks on them. But this was the only time since the whole thing began and it was this year (when it was arguably already over). So yeah.