4 ms·

It’s pretty weird to frame it as “Carly’s stupidity” when all of HP’s competitors mentioned ended up worse. Smacks of misogyny to be honest.

by pavlov 4y ago

slacka 4y ago
Do you know anything about HP's failure under her rule? I don't care about her gender, but I do know for a fact that they lost market share and had a massive brain drain under her tenure. Her massive layoffs included axing their R&D. Why don't you read this before jumping to conclusions?[1] It identifies many of the issues I saw first hand during that period, while still trying its best to find reasons to praise her. [1] https://www.mercurynews.com/2010/04/20/analysts-carly-fiorina-long-on-vision-fell-short-on-execution-at-hp-2/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2010/04/20/analysts-carly-fiorin...
- pavlov 4y ago
  The comment to which I was replying claimed that “Carly’s stupidity wiped out the high-end processor market.” Whatever her other faults as a CEO, that’s just not what happened with the Itanium. The writing was already on the wall for high-end Unix in the mid-1990s. HP teamed up with Intel and had them take over the bulk of R&D expense with HP continuing to extract profits from the shrinking market for over a decade. Meanwhile the competitors DEC and SGI and Sun basically went out of business. (IBM of course retained its niche as the only choice for those who only buy IBM.)
  - nomel 4y ago
    This would have been a more appropriate comment, than calling someone misogynistic.
    - pavlov 4y ago
      A misogynistic tone is recurrent in online comments about Carly Fiorina’s time at HP, and in my opinion the comment blaming her stupidity for Itanium was in that vein. Nobody talks about Sun’s contemporary leadership using phrases like “that dumb hockey jock Scott ruined Sparc.” Somehow it’s ok when the CEO was a woman.
      - KerrAvon 4y ago
        These two things are not the same. You don’t hang around with enough ex-Sun people if you haven’t heard derogatory comments about McNealy. But his ultimate failure at Sun wasn’t the same scale, and Sun was never as well managed or universally revered as HP.
        ghaff 4y ago
        I guess I hang around with different ex-Sun people because, however Sun ended up eventually, they're all pretty praising of McNealy and Sun's culture. One thing McNealy did get right is that Sun was pretty much the only one of the large Unix vendors that wasn't at least preparing for the possibility of an all-Microsoft future with NT. (IBM was arguably placing more of a small side bet that execs like Mills didn't really believe in but almost no one besides Sun dismissed NT out of hand.
        pjmlp 4y ago
        Yet Solaris is gone for all practical purposes, while Aix is still seeing new sales beyond plain maintenance, with increase in 2022.
- acdha 4y ago
  I know that she was blamed for that considerably more than her male predecessors who set them on that trajectory. She definitely isn’t blameless but I would pause to question why so many men are so quick to shift the blame to the only woman available as a scapegoat. I have an acquaintance who has been at HP for ages and his characterization is more that she was left holding the bag.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    I remember an internal email thread about HP and Fiorina at the analyst firm I used to work at and, at one point, one of my colleagues wrote with exasperation "What would you have them do? Bring back Lou Platt?" Hurd did seem to right the ship when he took over. But, to the degree many of us didn't really recognize at the time, a lot of that was financial engineering and eating of seed corn.
    - KerrAvon 4y ago
      Talk to the HP engineering staff who were there. It was irreparable, and it was Fiorina who did it. Or so they generally claim.
TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
HP could have killed the PC market with Alpha, spending all that Itanic development money on transitioning PCs from x86 to Alpha via an emulator, and then promoting native software. Apple have pulled this trick three times now, with great success. Instead Intel/HP nuked the entire mid/high-end of the industry including their own project and set computing back by a decade or so. She was also a notoriously terrible CEO for other reasons. And then tried to jump-start a political career with one of the worst campaign videos ever made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKWlOxhSIKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKWlOxhSIKk
- dan-robertson 4y ago
  I would be curious to read what people at DEC/Compaq/HP thought at the time about this because presumably people on the Alpha team would have thought of this idea. IIRC the Alpha could run x86 (with automatic translation) faster than the latest Intel chips[1] but then Intel got sufficiently good at the whole out-of-order thing (and I guess at the process of making chips in general) that they took the lead. Maybe there are good reasons that the people working on the Alpha thought they couldn’t win? I’m particularly interested in the Alpha because it seems like the thing was designed with many of today’s CPU performance challenges in mind. E.g. simple stuff like 64-bit but also things like caches and multiprocessing (cf the very weak concurrent memory model). See also [2] [1] eg see this from ’97 claiming that 0.5GHz Alpha could run x86 at comparable speed to a 2GHz PII https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/library/proceedings/usenix-nt97/full_papers/chernoff/chernoff.pdf https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/library/proceedin... but I’ve also seen claims that the Pentium Pro of ’95 would have been faster than this [2] https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/151220.151226 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/151220.151226 and I think the same here: https://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol4num4/vol4num4art1.pdf https://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol4num4/vol4num4art1.p...
  - scrlk 4y ago
    Re: Alpha team - as a side note, two ex-Alpha engineers played a pretty pivotal role in the processor landscape we have today: Dan Dobberpuhl - founded PA Semi, acquired by Apple in 2008 and kicked off Apple's custom processor strategy. Jim Keller - arguably the most famous processor architect alive today (Athlon 64, AMD Zen, Apple A4/5).
mepian 4y ago
Indeed it is thinly veiled misogyny, Fiorina joined HP just around Itanium's missed release date. I don't consider her a great leader, but there is no need to blame her for every failure of HP, the Itanium was conceived and almost completed by her predecessors.
- avhception 4y ago
  Wrongly assigning blame happens every day regardless of gender. While I'm sure there are many cases where it's done out of a misogynistic mindset, accusing someone of misogyny based on nothing more than the circumstance she is a woman and was wrongly assigned blame just rubs me the wrong way.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

It’s pretty weird to frame it as “Carly’s stupidity” when all of HP’s competitors mentioned ended up worse. Smacks of misogyny to be honest.

by pavlov 4y ago

It’s pretty weird to frame it as “Carly’s stupidity” when all of HP’s competitors mentioned ended up worse. Smacks of misogyny to be honest.

slacka 4y ago

Do you know anything about HP's failure under her rule? I don't care about her gender, but I do know for a fact that they lost market share and had a massive brain drain under her tenure. Her massive layoffs included axing their R&D. Why don't you read this before jumping to conclusions?[1] It identifies many of the issues I saw first hand during that period, while still trying its best to find reasons to praise her. [1] https://www.mercurynews.com/2010/04/20/analysts-carly-fiorina-long-on-vision-fell-short-on-execution-at-hp-2/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2010/04/20/analysts-carly-fiorin...

pavlov 4y ago
The comment to which I was replying claimed that “Carly’s stupidity wiped out the high-end processor market.” Whatever her other faults as a CEO, that’s just not what happened with the Itanium. The writing was already on the wall for high-end Unix in the mid-1990s. HP teamed up with Intel and had them take over the bulk of R&D expense with HP continuing to extract profits from the shrinking market for over a decade. Meanwhile the competitors DEC and SGI and Sun basically went out of business. (IBM of course retained its niche as the only choice for those who only buy IBM.)
- nomel 4y ago
  This would have been a more appropriate comment, than calling someone misogynistic.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    A misogynistic tone is recurrent in online comments about Carly Fiorina’s time at HP, and in my opinion the comment blaming her stupidity for Itanium was in that vein. Nobody talks about Sun’s contemporary leadership using phrases like “that dumb hockey jock Scott ruined Sparc.” Somehow it’s ok when the CEO was a woman.
    - KerrAvon 4y ago
      These two things are not the same. You don’t hang around with enough ex-Sun people if you haven’t heard derogatory comments about McNealy. But his ultimate failure at Sun wasn’t the same scale, and Sun was never as well managed or universally revered as HP.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        I guess I hang around with different ex-Sun people because, however Sun ended up eventually, they're all pretty praising of McNealy and Sun's culture. One thing McNealy did get right is that Sun was pretty much the only one of the large Unix vendors that wasn't at least preparing for the possibility of an all-Microsoft future with NT. (IBM was arguably placing more of a small side bet that execs like Mills didn't really believe in but almost no one besides Sun dismissed NT out of hand.
        pjmlp 4y ago
        Yet Solaris is gone for all practical purposes, while Aix is still seeing new sales beyond plain maintenance, with increase in 2022.
acdha 4y ago
I know that she was blamed for that considerably more than her male predecessors who set them on that trajectory. She definitely isn’t blameless but I would pause to question why so many men are so quick to shift the blame to the only woman available as a scapegoat. I have an acquaintance who has been at HP for ages and his characterization is more that she was left holding the bag.
- ghaff 4y ago
  I remember an internal email thread about HP and Fiorina at the analyst firm I used to work at and, at one point, one of my colleagues wrote with exasperation "What would you have them do? Bring back Lou Platt?" Hurd did seem to right the ship when he took over. But, to the degree many of us didn't really recognize at the time, a lot of that was financial engineering and eating of seed corn.
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    Talk to the HP engineering staff who were there. It was irreparable, and it was Fiorina who did it. Or so they generally claim.

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago

HP could have killed the PC market with Alpha, spending all that Itanic development money on transitioning PCs from x86 to Alpha via an emulator, and then promoting native software. Apple have pulled this trick three times now, with great success. Instead Intel/HP nuked the entire mid/high-end of the industry including their own project and set computing back by a decade or so. She was also a notoriously terrible CEO for other reasons. And then tried to jump-start a political career with one of the worst campaign videos ever made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKWlOxhSIKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKWlOxhSIKk

dan-robertson 4y ago
I would be curious to read what people at DEC/Compaq/HP thought at the time about this because presumably people on the Alpha team would have thought of this idea. IIRC the Alpha could run x86 (with automatic translation) faster than the latest Intel chips[1] but then Intel got sufficiently good at the whole out-of-order thing (and I guess at the process of making chips in general) that they took the lead. Maybe there are good reasons that the people working on the Alpha thought they couldn’t win? I’m particularly interested in the Alpha because it seems like the thing was designed with many of today’s CPU performance challenges in mind. E.g. simple stuff like 64-bit but also things like caches and multiprocessing (cf the very weak concurrent memory model). See also [2] [1] eg see this from ’97 claiming that 0.5GHz Alpha could run x86 at comparable speed to a 2GHz PII https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/library/proceedings/usenix-nt97/full_papers/chernoff/chernoff.pdf https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/library/proceedin... but I’ve also seen claims that the Pentium Pro of ’95 would have been faster than this [2] https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/151220.151226 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/151220.151226 and I think the same here: https://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol4num4/vol4num4art1.pdf https://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol4num4/vol4num4art1.p...
- scrlk 4y ago
  Re: Alpha team - as a side note, two ex-Alpha engineers played a pretty pivotal role in the processor landscape we have today: Dan Dobberpuhl - founded PA Semi, acquired by Apple in 2008 and kicked off Apple's custom processor strategy. Jim Keller - arguably the most famous processor architect alive today (Athlon 64, AMD Zen, Apple A4/5).

mepian 4y ago

Indeed it is thinly veiled misogyny, Fiorina joined HP just around Itanium's missed release date. I don't consider her a great leader, but there is no need to blame her for every failure of HP, the Itanium was conceived and almost completed by her predecessors.

avhception 4y ago
Wrongly assigning blame happens every day regardless of gender. While I'm sure there are many cases where it's done out of a misogynistic mindset, accusing someone of misogyny based on nothing more than the circumstance she is a woman and was wrongly assigned blame just rubs me the wrong way.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]