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Not arguing that caution shouldn’t be applied but I think it’s a bit more subtle than that. MDMA is prone to abuse in the recreational use sense, but it’s not r

Not arguing that caution shouldn’t be applied but I think it’s a bit more subtle than that. MDMA is prone to abuse in the recreational use sense, but it’s not really habit forming in the same way other drugs are. Sure, you can always find edge cases but compared to many other drugs (including alcohol) you’re unlikely to meet many daily users.

sirsinsalot 4y ago
I somewhat agree. Daily use doesn't produce the high being sought, but it is very habit forming. I know from personal experience and that of many people around me that doing molly every weekend quickly becomes a dependency and will mess you up very quickly. In a therapy setting I'm sure risks are low, but I wouldn't make such black and white comparisons against alcohol or say, cocaine. The reality of addiction is more than a function of frequency or tolerance and often comparing drugs directly is misleading.
- MrScruff 4y ago
  I’d refer you to the extensive research on the topic by David Nutt, Professor of Pharmacology at Imperial College and former government drugs adviser. It’s possible to compare the ‘relative harm’ of substances, and they will, partly by the nature of the different ways they interact with our reward systems have different risk profiles. Again, not dismissing the risk, but sane drugs policy does require an evidence based assessment of how each substance impacts society and individuals.
  - nmca 4y ago
    I'm broadly pro harm reduction & happy about psych legalisarion, but the details of the Nutt studies are, aha, pretty Nutty. The most cited one just involved taking some doctors and asking them to yolo out some qualitative harm estimates. Not ideal evidence-based medicine. (I would provide a close cite but I only recall from his book "drugs without the hot air" & am on mobile)
tdehnel 4y ago
You moved the goalposts by switching from “abuse” to “daily habit forming”. Abuse doesn’t require daily or even regular use.
- MrScruff 4y ago
  Yes I did, because 'drug abuse' isn't a useful or clearly defined term. Eg. if I search for a definition, in the first few hits I get: "The use of illegal drugs or the use of prescription or over-the-counter drugs for purposes other than those for which they are meant to be used, or in excessive amounts." "Substance abuse, also known as drug abuse, is a patterned use of a drug in which the user consumes the substance in amounts or with methods which are harmful to themselves or others, and is a form of substance related disorder. " The first definition will vary based on your local laws, which as we have seen, are also subject to change. So if that's the meaning of the term 'drug abuse' it's not particularly useful to discuss since it's a technicality. The common factor between the two definitions (excessive, harmful consumption) might be more useful to discuss. Which was why I chose to talk about that (rate of consumption, risk of addiction) specifically.

sirsinsalot 4y ago

I somewhat agree. Daily use doesn't produce the high being sought, but it is very habit forming. I know from personal experience and that of many people around me that doing molly every weekend quickly becomes a dependency and will mess you up very quickly. In a therapy setting I'm sure risks are low, but I wouldn't make such black and white comparisons against alcohol or say, cocaine. The reality of addiction is more than a function of frequency or tolerance and often comparing drugs directly is misleading.

MrScruff 4y ago
I’d refer you to the extensive research on the topic by David Nutt, Professor of Pharmacology at Imperial College and former government drugs adviser. It’s possible to compare the ‘relative harm’ of substances, and they will, partly by the nature of the different ways they interact with our reward systems have different risk profiles. Again, not dismissing the risk, but sane drugs policy does require an evidence based assessment of how each substance impacts society and individuals.
- nmca 4y ago
  I'm broadly pro harm reduction & happy about psych legalisarion, but the details of the Nutt studies are, aha, pretty Nutty. The most cited one just involved taking some doctors and asking them to yolo out some qualitative harm estimates. Not ideal evidence-based medicine. (I would provide a close cite but I only recall from his book "drugs without the hot air" & am on mobile)

tdehnel 4y ago

You moved the goalposts by switching from “abuse” to “daily habit forming”. Abuse doesn’t require daily or even regular use.

MrScruff 4y ago
Yes I did, because 'drug abuse' isn't a useful or clearly defined term. Eg. if I search for a definition, in the first few hits I get: "The use of illegal drugs or the use of prescription or over-the-counter drugs for purposes other than those for which they are meant to be used, or in excessive amounts." "Substance abuse, also known as drug abuse, is a patterned use of a drug in which the user consumes the substance in amounts or with methods which are harmful to themselves or others, and is a form of substance related disorder. " The first definition will vary based on your local laws, which as we have seen, are also subject to change. So if that's the meaning of the term 'drug abuse' it's not particularly useful to discuss since it's a technicality. The common factor between the two definitions (excessive, harmful consumption) might be more useful to discuss. Which was why I chose to talk about that (rate of consumption, risk of addiction) specifically.