3 ms·

One has to think, the drop is trade must be temporary and out of spite (from the EU side), since if the UK had goods other EU nations wanted to import just a fe

by Alupis 4y ago

One has to think, the drop is trade must be temporary and out of spite (from the EU side), since if the UK had goods other EU nations wanted to import just a few years ago, then they surely still want to import them today. > now only the rich can work or retire abroad again This is the same for almost all countries though, isn't it? As a US citizen, I cannot freely just travel across the EU either (without visas and what-not). Perhaps time will tell if this ultimately was good or not. I can understand both sides of the issue - remaining an independent nation and suffering the costs an independent nation must endure, or join a federated government and effectively become a State (in US speak) within the EU.

phatfish 4y ago
It could be interpreted as spite, but the real reason is that the EU is not going to make an exception to single market access for the UK. All the EU member states had to agree to the deal negotiated so it becomes very bureaucratic, this can be good and bad. The goods that the UK has that other EU nations wanted are being replaced by other EU nations. They are now more competitive than UK businesses that have to deal with EU customs checks and other bureaucracy/taxes on a per-country basis. You can say it is "protectionist", which is what certain politicians in the UK like to cast the single market as now, but this is how every economy in the world is run. The US market is protected too. > As a US citizen, I cannot freely just travel across the EU either. True, but as a UK citizen i COULD before 2019. As a US citizen you can work/study/retire in any US state. Would you be happy if that was taken away? The member states of the EU are still independent nations, they are not controlled by a federal government like the US. Getting into EU lawmaking is a rabbit hole, but my feeling is there is a give and take that overall benefits the member states. At the end of they day each country still controls it's own destiny, as the UK felt it needed to prove.
- Alupis 4y ago
  From an outside perspective, it feels like we're witnessing a slow formation of a new super-nation, called the EU, with many member states, such as Germany, France, etc. It likely would not take a whole lot for member nations to cede enough power to the EU and make that a reality - either intentionally or unintentionally, gradually or all at once. Within the US, State's rights and powers have been slowly eroded over the years as well - with a surprising number of people supporting increased centralized power within the US federal government. People already refer to the EU like it's a singular entity. I wonder if this will become a reality in the not-so-distance future. There's pro's and con's to that, of course, much like States within the US.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > It likely would not take a whole lot for member nations to cede enough power to the EU and make that a reality Its currently impossible and would take decades - each country has seperate army that speaks a different language, has vigorous national identity. It has sovereign government and paliaments. There is nothing EU can do to compell a member state to do anything it doesnt want to do. EU is like a big mega-trade deal more than a government. Currently Hingary and Poland are flouting EU laws on democracy, the executive jas seized control of the courts and EU can do nothing about it.
    - arlcode 4y ago
      Yes, the EU allows member states to punch above their weight when negotiating treaties with foreign nations and the harmonized single market is economically benefitial for many people and Industries. Especially after Brexit people start to realize that. (Thank you UK?) But there isn't a EU national identity to speak of. Mostly no one would say "I'm a citizen of the EU" but "I'm a citizen of France/Germany/Poland which is a member of the EU". The "in group" vs "out group" distinction runs along national borders when it comes to language, laws, news, government and culture. At best there are "even-more-out groups" when it comes to EU-foreign topics such as economic treaties and refugees.
      - sveme 4y ago
        Disagree there as declared identity depends on context. In the US or Asia I am a European. In France I am a German. In Germany I am Bavarian. There are layers to identities.
        arlcode 4y ago
        Yes that's true as well.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> One has to think, the drop is trade must be temporary and out of spite (from the EU side) This is a seriously wild accusation. My cost of sending parcels to Europe, to my family, has almost tripled - what effect do you think that had on me? Am I spitefull towards my family If i send them less parcels now? Do people in poland sit around thinking how to spite Britain, and have nothing better to do? All the brexiteera I meet are really full of anger at the EU, they are the ones that have cut off your own nose out of spite Jusy like most Russians are spitefull towards US/Nato for perceived wrongs, mostly divorsed from reality. They engage in self harm just to harm the supposed object of their spite. Nothing will even hypothetically ever be gained out of eyiher excersise. >As a US citizen, I cannot freely just travel across the EU either (without visas and what-not). As a citizen of a retarded country I cannot freely travel anywhere and have spent over $50,000 on Visas for me and mu family. My entire life is dictated by visa conditions, I have missed many opportunities and it's a source of major anxiety. It really sucks.
sveme 4y ago
You do seem to have a very outside view on things and haven‘t followed the news from the UK much lately if you come to that conclusion. Maybe read some UK newspapers from time to time.
flohofwoe 4y ago
> As a US citizen... I'm baffled... would you also prefer if all US states would be their own independent countries without free trade and travel? Are there "Texit" or "Calexit" movements in the US? Would you see this as a good thing? Do you think the US would be remotely where they are if it would be 50 tiny countries bickering among each other instead of acting as one? > As a US citizen, I cannot freely just travel across the EU either (without visas and what-not). Actually you can: "Citizens of the United States with a valid US passport can travel to 27 European member countries of the Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days without having to apply for or obtain a Schengen visa for short-term tourism or a business trip." (from: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/us-citizens/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/us-citizens/) ...same for UK, except you can even stay for 6 months instead of 3.

by Alupis 4y ago

phatfish 4y ago

It could be interpreted as spite, but the real reason is that the EU is not going to make an exception to single market access for the UK. All the EU member states had to agree to the deal negotiated so it becomes very bureaucratic, this can be good and bad. The goods that the UK has that other EU nations wanted are being replaced by other EU nations. They are now more competitive than UK businesses that have to deal with EU customs checks and other bureaucracy/taxes on a per-country basis. You can say it is "protectionist", which is what certain politicians in the UK like to cast the single market as now, but this is how every economy in the world is run. The US market is protected too. > As a US citizen, I cannot freely just travel across the EU either. True, but as a UK citizen i COULD before 2019. As a US citizen you can work/study/retire in any US state. Would you be happy if that was taken away? The member states of the EU are still independent nations, they are not controlled by a federal government like the US. Getting into EU lawmaking is a rabbit hole, but my feeling is there is a give and take that overall benefits the member states. At the end of they day each country still controls it's own destiny, as the UK felt it needed to prove.

Alupis 4y ago
From an outside perspective, it feels like we're witnessing a slow formation of a new super-nation, called the EU, with many member states, such as Germany, France, etc. It likely would not take a whole lot for member nations to cede enough power to the EU and make that a reality - either intentionally or unintentionally, gradually or all at once. Within the US, State's rights and powers have been slowly eroded over the years as well - with a surprising number of people supporting increased centralized power within the US federal government. People already refer to the EU like it's a singular entity. I wonder if this will become a reality in the not-so-distance future. There's pro's and con's to that, of course, much like States within the US.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > It likely would not take a whole lot for member nations to cede enough power to the EU and make that a reality Its currently impossible and would take decades - each country has seperate army that speaks a different language, has vigorous national identity. It has sovereign government and paliaments. There is nothing EU can do to compell a member state to do anything it doesnt want to do. EU is like a big mega-trade deal more than a government. Currently Hingary and Poland are flouting EU laws on democracy, the executive jas seized control of the courts and EU can do nothing about it.
  - arlcode 4y ago
    Yes, the EU allows member states to punch above their weight when negotiating treaties with foreign nations and the harmonized single market is economically benefitial for many people and Industries. Especially after Brexit people start to realize that. (Thank you UK?) But there isn't a EU national identity to speak of. Mostly no one would say "I'm a citizen of the EU" but "I'm a citizen of France/Germany/Poland which is a member of the EU". The "in group" vs "out group" distinction runs along national borders when it comes to language, laws, news, government and culture. At best there are "even-more-out groups" when it comes to EU-foreign topics such as economic treaties and refugees.
    - sveme 4y ago
      Disagree there as declared identity depends on context. In the US or Asia I am a European. In France I am a German. In Germany I am Bavarian. There are layers to identities.
      - arlcode 4y ago
        Yes that's true as well.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> One has to think, the drop is trade must be temporary and out of spite (from the EU side) This is a seriously wild accusation. My cost of sending parcels to Europe, to my family, has almost tripled - what effect do you think that had on me? Am I spitefull towards my family If i send them less parcels now? Do people in poland sit around thinking how to spite Britain, and have nothing better to do? All the brexiteera I meet are really full of anger at the EU, they are the ones that have cut off your own nose out of spite Jusy like most Russians are spitefull towards US/Nato for perceived wrongs, mostly divorsed from reality. They engage in self harm just to harm the supposed object of their spite. Nothing will even hypothetically ever be gained out of eyiher excersise. >As a US citizen, I cannot freely just travel across the EU either (without visas and what-not). As a citizen of a retarded country I cannot freely travel anywhere and have spent over $50,000 on Visas for me and mu family. My entire life is dictated by visa conditions, I have missed many opportunities and it's a source of major anxiety. It really sucks.

sveme 4y ago

You do seem to have a very outside view on things and haven‘t followed the news from the UK much lately if you come to that conclusion. Maybe read some UK newspapers from time to time.

flohofwoe 4y ago

> As a US citizen... I'm baffled... would you also prefer if all US states would be their own independent countries without free trade and travel? Are there "Texit" or "Calexit" movements in the US? Would you see this as a good thing? Do you think the US would be remotely where they are if it would be 50 tiny countries bickering among each other instead of acting as one? > As a US citizen, I cannot freely just travel across the EU either (without visas and what-not). Actually you can: "Citizens of the United States with a valid US passport can travel to 27 European member countries of the Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days without having to apply for or obtain a Schengen visa for short-term tourism or a business trip." (from: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/us-citizens/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/us-citizens/) ...same for UK, except you can even stay for 6 months instead of 3.