5 ms·

I've been trying to find a decent endurance NVME in the m.2 form factor for write-heavy applications and it appears that true 2-bit MLC has all but disappeared,

I've been trying to find a decent endurance NVME in the m.2 form factor for write-heavy applications and it appears that true 2-bit MLC has all but disappeared, replaced by 3-bit TLC and higher (with commensurate loss of endurance) The high endurance SSDs appear to be only available in u.2\u.3\hhhl and god-help-me EDSFF form factors Any suggestions? Micron's 7450 isn't readily available

mnadkvlb 4y ago
i recommend samsung pm9a3 versions. not as popular, but are enterprise products and also the endurance is like 3 times 980 pro i believe (please check it, not 100% sure). Been using in my threadrupper workstation with a lot of vms which are put to sleep every day with around .25tb written and read each time the vms are started. keep in mind these are 22110 form factor
- jeffbee 4y ago
  These are not available with retail support so if you manage to acquire one (which may have been pulled from service with an unknown level of previous wear) you will get ZERO support from Samsung no matter what goes wrong.
  - mnadkvlb 4y ago
    well i bought from digitec here in switzerland and they take care of warranty. other than that i don't expect any support from any ssd vendor. I rely on the physical store i buy from where i live. that's the reason i only buy either physically or from amazon germnay (their support had been rock solid in the last 10 years i had been using them).
- csdvrx 4y ago
  SR-IOV support? Any firmware issue? (https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/pm9a3-firmware-errormod-related-to-fw-version.36822/ https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/pm9a3-firm...)
adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
While it's true that MLC is mostly dead, you might want to consider a higher capacity TLC ssd. If you double your capacity, you double the endurance since SSD endurance is in drive writes per day, and a bigger SSD will likely have a bigger SLC cache to help with the write speed.
- rektide 4y ago
  2 -> 3 bit cells is a 1.5x capacity bump. i would not be shocked to find tlc has a >1.5x impact on dwpd.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    But it might be easier to find e.g. a 3x sized TLC compared to a 1x size MLC in the FF that GP wants.
    - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
      For a simple example, the 970 pro (MLC) had a 1200 drive write warrenty, while the 980 pro (TLC) only has a 600 drive write warranty, but the 2TB 980 pro is cheaper than the 1 TB 970 pro so you can get the same endurance for less.
- dinvlad 4y ago
  Seems weird that only 2TBs fail then
  - wmf 4y ago
    This sounds like a firmware bug that has nothing to do with endurance.
- spyder 4y ago
  Yep, you can even adjust the overprovisioning manually (at least for Samsung). So if you need more endurance (and improved random write performance) just buy bigger capacity and increase the over provisioning allocation. Found this good summary about it with graphs showing the impact of it: https://www.atpinc.com/blog/over-provisioning-ssd-benefits-endurance-and-performance https://www.atpinc.com/blog/over-provisioning-ssd-benefits-e...
OGWhales 4y ago
You may also want to ask over on reddit in /r/newMaxx. Good place for SSD info and there is a pinned post for asking questions like this
- walterbell 4y ago
  NewMaxx SSD references: http://ssd.borecraft.com/ http://ssd.borecraft.com/
EarthLaunch 4y ago
They don't really make them anymore, but you can still get m.2 form factor Intel Optane SSDs in the 900/905P series, example[0]. They have insane endurance specs. Their performance is also still awesome, especially for random reads/writes[1]. I wish they had continued making them. Most PC builders just bought crappy Samsung SSDs this whole time, ignoring these awesome (and high priced) drives. > Life Expectancy 1.6 million hours Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) > Lifetime Endurance4 10 Drive Writes per Day (DWPD) There was one update, but I don't believe it's m.2? [2] 0: https://www.newegg.com/intel-optane-ssd-905p-series-380gb/p/N82E16820167466 https://www.newegg.com/intel-optane-ssd-905p-series-380gb/p/... 1: https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/ https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/ (sort by "Avg Bench" and you'll see these old Optanes still in the top 10) 2: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/memory-storage/solid-state-drives/data-center-ssds/optane-ssd-p5800x-p5801x-brief.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/memory...
- nine_k 4y ago
  Most PCs experience very little write load; I can imagine that many of them experience less than one full drive write per lifetime. A database server box, or even a CI build box, is a whole different business.
- morjom 4y ago
  Isn't userbenchmark the site that had them artificially giving Intel/nvidia better scores on GPU and CPU metrics?
  - beebeepka 4y ago
    Same one. Assume malice, cluelessness, or both when someone cites "scores" from that place
- beebeepka 4y ago
  > Most PC builders just bought crappy Samsung SSDs this whole time, ignoring these awesome (and high priced) drives. Ha, you can't blame the consumer. Great tech but expensive and locked to intel. Nobody was going back to the blue evil just because they had a really random reads and writes for the enterprise market.
walterbell 4y ago
WD RED SSDs are targeted at NAS use cases and claim endurance of 1PBW per TB, https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-red-sn700-review https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-red-sn700-review
zorgmonkey 4y ago
Why not get a U.2 drive and an adapter like this one https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/m2e4sff8643 https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/m2e4sff8643
- smiley1437 4y ago
  Didn't know such a thing existed, thank you!
HyperSane 4y ago
Use larger drives and use RAID to distribute writes over more drives. Accept that a TLC drive heavily used for writes is a consumable and act accordingly.

mnadkvlb 4y ago

i recommend samsung pm9a3 versions. not as popular, but are enterprise products and also the endurance is like 3 times 980 pro i believe (please check it, not 100% sure). Been using in my threadrupper workstation with a lot of vms which are put to sleep every day with around .25tb written and read each time the vms are started. keep in mind these are 22110 form factor

jeffbee 4y ago
These are not available with retail support so if you manage to acquire one (which may have been pulled from service with an unknown level of previous wear) you will get ZERO support from Samsung no matter what goes wrong.
- mnadkvlb 4y ago
  well i bought from digitec here in switzerland and they take care of warranty. other than that i don't expect any support from any ssd vendor. I rely on the physical store i buy from where i live. that's the reason i only buy either physically or from amazon germnay (their support had been rock solid in the last 10 years i had been using them).
csdvrx 4y ago
SR-IOV support? Any firmware issue? (https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/pm9a3-firmware-errormod-related-to-fw-version.36822/ https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/pm9a3-firm...)

adgjlsfhk1 4y ago

While it's true that MLC is mostly dead, you might want to consider a higher capacity TLC ssd. If you double your capacity, you double the endurance since SSD endurance is in drive writes per day, and a bigger SSD will likely have a bigger SLC cache to help with the write speed.

rektide 4y ago
2 -> 3 bit cells is a 1.5x capacity bump. i would not be shocked to find tlc has a >1.5x impact on dwpd.
- aidenn0 4y ago
  But it might be easier to find e.g. a 3x sized TLC compared to a 1x size MLC in the FF that GP wants.
  - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
    For a simple example, the 970 pro (MLC) had a 1200 drive write warrenty, while the 980 pro (TLC) only has a 600 drive write warranty, but the 2TB 980 pro is cheaper than the 1 TB 970 pro so you can get the same endurance for less.
dinvlad 4y ago
Seems weird that only 2TBs fail then
- wmf 4y ago
  This sounds like a firmware bug that has nothing to do with endurance.
spyder 4y ago
Yep, you can even adjust the overprovisioning manually (at least for Samsung). So if you need more endurance (and improved random write performance) just buy bigger capacity and increase the over provisioning allocation. Found this good summary about it with graphs showing the impact of it: https://www.atpinc.com/blog/over-provisioning-ssd-benefits-endurance-and-performance https://www.atpinc.com/blog/over-provisioning-ssd-benefits-e...

OGWhales 4y ago

You may also want to ask over on reddit in /r/newMaxx. Good place for SSD info and there is a pinned post for asking questions like this

walterbell 4y ago
NewMaxx SSD references: http://ssd.borecraft.com/ http://ssd.borecraft.com/

EarthLaunch 4y ago

They don't really make them anymore, but you can still get m.2 form factor Intel Optane SSDs in the 900/905P series, example[0]. They have insane endurance specs. Their performance is also still awesome, especially for random reads/writes[1]. I wish they had continued making them. Most PC builders just bought crappy Samsung SSDs this whole time, ignoring these awesome (and high priced) drives. > Life Expectancy 1.6 million hours Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) > Lifetime Endurance4 10 Drive Writes per Day (DWPD) There was one update, but I don't believe it's m.2? [2] 0: https://www.newegg.com/intel-optane-ssd-905p-series-380gb/p/N82E16820167466 https://www.newegg.com/intel-optane-ssd-905p-series-380gb/p/... 1: https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/ https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/ (sort by "Avg Bench" and you'll see these old Optanes still in the top 10) 2: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/memory-storage/solid-state-drives/data-center-ssds/optane-ssd-p5800x-p5801x-brief.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/memory...

nine_k 4y ago
Most PCs experience very little write load; I can imagine that many of them experience less than one full drive write per lifetime. A database server box, or even a CI build box, is a whole different business.
morjom 4y ago
Isn't userbenchmark the site that had them artificially giving Intel/nvidia better scores on GPU and CPU metrics?
- beebeepka 4y ago
  Same one. Assume malice, cluelessness, or both when someone cites "scores" from that place
beebeepka 4y ago
> Most PC builders just bought crappy Samsung SSDs this whole time, ignoring these awesome (and high priced) drives. Ha, you can't blame the consumer. Great tech but expensive and locked to intel. Nobody was going back to the blue evil just because they had a really random reads and writes for the enterprise market.

walterbell 4y ago

WD RED SSDs are targeted at NAS use cases and claim endurance of 1PBW per TB, https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-red-sn700-review https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-red-sn700-review

zorgmonkey 4y ago

Why not get a U.2 drive and an adapter like this one https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/m2e4sff8643 https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/m2e4sff8643

smiley1437 4y ago
Didn't know such a thing existed, thank you!

HyperSane 4y ago

Use larger drives and use RAID to distribute writes over more drives. Accept that a TLC drive heavily used for writes is a consumable and act accordingly.