58 ms·

$27.63 is such an absurdly low amount that it wouldn't even be considered a livable wage in some major metros.

barry-cotter 4y ago
Is this a joke? $1,105 a week is $55K a year and US GDP per capita (which is basically average earnings) is $69K a year. A lot of people live on less than that. Median income in the US is less than that, $44K. > The average personal income in the U.S. is $63,214. > The median income in the U.S. is $44,225. > The average American annual real wage was $67,521 in 2020. > The average U.S. household income is $87,864. > The median U.S. household income is $61,937 https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-american-income/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-american-income/
- Spooky23 4y ago
  In NYC with any size family you’d likely qualify for public housing.
- dagmx 4y ago
  It’s not a joke because they mentioned major metros whereas you’re looking at averages. Both can be true at once. The problem is that the amount is not relative to CoL but a flat amount.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    > It’s not a joke because they mentioned major metros whereas you’re looking at averages. Not all major metros make building housing illegal. San Francisco and New York are not the only major metros in the US. You can build in Seattle and Houston at least.
    - dagmx 4y ago
      that’s a complete non-sequitur. Seattle has a much higher median cost of living than your comment. Also the entire Bay Area has high cost of living, even when you can build in other areas other than SF.
  - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
    Even just looking at the mean personal income in metropolitan areas, it's not much higher than that–it was 56k in 2019 and is now 64k, according to the BEA Metropolitan Area table: https://www.bea.gov/data/income-saving/personal-income-county-metro-and-other-areas https://www.bea.gov/data/income-saving/personal-income-count... It doesn't include mean data but the mean personal income in cities may very well be below the 55k/year cutoff.
    - dagmx 4y ago
      Sure or it may be much higher depending on the specific metro. This is why you can’t take nationwide averages because the USA is a giant country , and the cutoff might be fine for one region but not another.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > $1,105 a week The weekly salary cutoff is $684/wk. If a firm is employing software workers and using hourly-wage exemption at $27.63, they are probably not getting 40 hrs/week regularly. > US GDP per capita (which is basically average earnings) is $69K a year. GDP per capita could be considered a very loose estimate of average income including capital accumulation, but...that's not super relevant to a claim about major metro living wages or appropriateness as an FLSA exemption point.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
shagie 4y ago
I will note that I have been paid less than $27.63 per hour as a software developer ($27.50 to be precise) to make it so that I was a non-exempt worker. On one side it meant that my employer would be very unhappy if I worked less 40 hours punched in. On the other hand, when punched in for 50 hours I had a nice bit more on the paycheck (the 40h one was $1100 before taxes; the 50h one was $1500 before taxes). I'll also note that the median per capita income was about $25k/year and I was able to buy a house on a double lot (large fenced yard) for $60k.
Panzer04 4y ago
"Absurdly low" is extremely strong language for 27$ an hour. Privileged be the developer, I guess.
- kyralis 4y ago
  That's an uncharitable interpretation of the GP, I think. "Absurdly low to be considered exempt"? That's not "privilege of the developer", that's "we shouldn't screw over employees who aren't getting adequately compensated.
  - shagie 4y ago
    One of the other things to consider on this... that $27.63 isn't a minimum wage but rather a "if you are paid less than this, you get time and a half overtime for hours worked beyond 40 in a work week." This is one of those things that hasn't been updated in a long time. The original law was https://www.congress.gov/101/statute/STATUTE-104/STATUTE-104-Pg2871.pdf https://www.congress.gov/101/statute/STATUTE-104/STATUTE-104... from 1990: > Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Labor shall promulgate regulations that permit computer systems analysts, computer programmers, software engineers, and other similarly skilled professional workers as defined in such regulations to qualify as exempt executive, administrative, or professional employees under section 13(a)(1) of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (29 U.S.C. 213(a)(1)). Such regulations shall provide that if such employees are paid on an hourly basis they shall be exempt only if their hourly rate of pay is at least 6 1/2 times greater than the applicable minimum wage rate under section 6 of such Act (29 U.S.C. 206). (note, there may be transcription errors above) The federal minimum wage in 1990 was $3.80. In 1996, this value was frozen at $27.63 which was 6.5x the federal minimum wage of $4.25 at that time. If it was not frozen, that value would be $47.13 today.
- gizmo686 4y ago
  We are talking about the threshold for being exempt from one of the major victories of the workers rights movement. Thrme bar for such an exemptions should be high. $27/hour comes to about $56,160 a year According to HUD [0], that qualifies and individual as "very low income" in San Francisco, CA (threshhold $65,250) For California overall, you would merely be "low income" (threshhold $56,450) In Houston Texas, that would be "low income" for a family of 2. (Threshhold 56,700) [0] https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il.html https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il.html
moonka 4y ago
In 2016 there was an update by the outgoing administration to raise the floor to $913 a week, but it got rescinded and instead set to the current $684 a week rate.
adenozine 4y ago
I don’t disagree with you, but I know plenty of folks with Masters making less than that, albeit outside of tech. I’m not sure you deserve the downvotes, I think the way you phrased it might make people think you’re out of touch.
- Severian 4y ago
  Indeed, I did have a bit of a flippant tone. This was not intentional. I help support my spouse and without my major contribution (almost 4x theirs) to our income pool (where they can only find part-time work), we'd be much worse off. So in some regards I am earning close to this rate as I help pay not for just myself, but my partner too (I have multiple pets but no kids, thank god). If that give you some idea of how much I make and they make. To be clear, I am still paid hourly. I am not a developer either, so that kinda goes to my point (but I do work in IT). My company doesn't want us to go over 40 hours though, so if I reach it mid-day Friday, I leave early. If it wasn't for paying _well below the average_ in the area we live at for rent, we'd have some struggle as we have high utility rates, car payments, insurance, 401k, medical bills, entertainment/social lives, etc, etc that everyone needs to balance and still avoid major anxiety over something ruining the routine financially. Inflation is the dark cloud over every horizon at the moment. I can't finance a home like I wanted to. I'll have to hold off a little longer. The idea is that it's absurd that the Govt. has not increased this scale with CoL/inflation. To categorize someone exempt at such a low rate is a bit of a slap in the face. EDIT: As for people much more educated, that's a similar but tangential argument. People who put in their time and money to be educated and become experts/pioneers in their field should be compensated appropriately. This is another societal failure that needs attention.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> $27.63 is such an absurdly low amount that it wouldn't even be considered a livable wage in some major metros The exemption thresholds for computer workers in California are $53.80/hr or $9,338/mo on a salary basis, instead of the federal $27.63/hr or $684/wk on a salary basis.

Is this a joke? $1,105 a week is $55K a year and US GDP per capita (which is basically average earnings) is $69K a year. A lot of people live on less than that. Median income in the US is less than that, $44K. > The average personal income in the U.S. is $63,214. > The median income in the U.S. is $44,225. > The average American annual real wage was $67,521 in 2020. > The average U.S. household income is $87,864. > The median U.S. household income is $61,937 https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-american-income/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-american-income/

Spooky23 4y ago
In NYC with any size family you’d likely qualify for public housing.
dagmx 4y ago
It’s not a joke because they mentioned major metros whereas you’re looking at averages. Both can be true at once. The problem is that the amount is not relative to CoL but a flat amount.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > It’s not a joke because they mentioned major metros whereas you’re looking at averages. Not all major metros make building housing illegal. San Francisco and New York are not the only major metros in the US. You can build in Seattle and Houston at least.
  - dagmx 4y ago
    that’s a complete non-sequitur. Seattle has a much higher median cost of living than your comment. Also the entire Bay Area has high cost of living, even when you can build in other areas other than SF.
- AlchemistCamp 4y ago
  Even just looking at the mean personal income in metropolitan areas, it's not much higher than that–it was 56k in 2019 and is now 64k, according to the BEA Metropolitan Area table: https://www.bea.gov/data/income-saving/personal-income-county-metro-and-other-areas https://www.bea.gov/data/income-saving/personal-income-count... It doesn't include mean data but the mean personal income in cities may very well be below the 55k/year cutoff.
  - dagmx 4y ago
    Sure or it may be much higher depending on the specific metro. This is why you can’t take nationwide averages because the USA is a giant country , and the cutoff might be fine for one region but not another.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> $1,105 a week The weekly salary cutoff is $684/wk. If a firm is employing software workers and using hourly-wage exemption at $27.63, they are probably not getting 40 hrs/week regularly. > US GDP per capita (which is basically average earnings) is $69K a year. GDP per capita could be considered a very loose estimate of average income including capital accumulation, but...that's not super relevant to a claim about major metro living wages or appropriateness as an FLSA exemption point.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

shagie 4y ago

I will note that I have been paid less than $27.63 per hour as a software developer ($27.50 to be precise) to make it so that I was a non-exempt worker. On one side it meant that my employer would be very unhappy if I worked less 40 hours punched in. On the other hand, when punched in for 50 hours I had a nice bit more on the paycheck (the 40h one was $1100 before taxes; the 50h one was $1500 before taxes). I'll also note that the median per capita income was about $25k/year and I was able to buy a house on a double lot (large fenced yard) for $60k.

Panzer04 4y ago

"Absurdly low" is extremely strong language for 27$ an hour. Privileged be the developer, I guess.

kyralis 4y ago
That's an uncharitable interpretation of the GP, I think. "Absurdly low to be considered exempt"? That's not "privilege of the developer", that's "we shouldn't screw over employees who aren't getting adequately compensated.
- shagie 4y ago
  One of the other things to consider on this... that $27.63 isn't a minimum wage but rather a "if you are paid less than this, you get time and a half overtime for hours worked beyond 40 in a work week." This is one of those things that hasn't been updated in a long time. The original law was https://www.congress.gov/101/statute/STATUTE-104/STATUTE-104-Pg2871.pdf https://www.congress.gov/101/statute/STATUTE-104/STATUTE-104... from 1990: > Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Labor shall promulgate regulations that permit computer systems analysts, computer programmers, software engineers, and other similarly skilled professional workers as defined in such regulations to qualify as exempt executive, administrative, or professional employees under section 13(a)(1) of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (29 U.S.C. 213(a)(1)). Such regulations shall provide that if such employees are paid on an hourly basis they shall be exempt only if their hourly rate of pay is at least 6 1/2 times greater than the applicable minimum wage rate under section 6 of such Act (29 U.S.C. 206). (note, there may be transcription errors above) The federal minimum wage in 1990 was $3.80. In 1996, this value was frozen at $27.63 which was 6.5x the federal minimum wage of $4.25 at that time. If it was not frozen, that value would be $47.13 today.
gizmo686 4y ago
We are talking about the threshold for being exempt from one of the major victories of the workers rights movement. Thrme bar for such an exemptions should be high. $27/hour comes to about $56,160 a year According to HUD [0], that qualifies and individual as "very low income" in San Francisco, CA (threshhold $65,250) For California overall, you would merely be "low income" (threshhold $56,450) In Houston Texas, that would be "low income" for a family of 2. (Threshhold 56,700) [0] https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il.html https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il.html

moonka 4y ago

In 2016 there was an update by the outgoing administration to raise the floor to $913 a week, but it got rescinded and instead set to the current $684 a week rate.

adenozine 4y ago

I don’t disagree with you, but I know plenty of folks with Masters making less than that, albeit outside of tech. I’m not sure you deserve the downvotes, I think the way you phrased it might make people think you’re out of touch.

Severian 4y ago
Indeed, I did have a bit of a flippant tone. This was not intentional. I help support my spouse and without my major contribution (almost 4x theirs) to our income pool (where they can only find part-time work), we'd be much worse off. So in some regards I am earning close to this rate as I help pay not for just myself, but my partner too (I have multiple pets but no kids, thank god). If that give you some idea of how much I make and they make. To be clear, I am still paid hourly. I am not a developer either, so that kinda goes to my point (but I do work in IT). My company doesn't want us to go over 40 hours though, so if I reach it mid-day Friday, I leave early. If it wasn't for paying _well below the average_ in the area we live at for rent, we'd have some struggle as we have high utility rates, car payments, insurance, 401k, medical bills, entertainment/social lives, etc, etc that everyone needs to balance and still avoid major anxiety over something ruining the routine financially. Inflation is the dark cloud over every horizon at the moment. I can't finance a home like I wanted to. I'll have to hold off a little longer. The idea is that it's absurd that the Govt. has not increased this scale with CoL/inflation. To categorize someone exempt at such a low rate is a bit of a slap in the face. EDIT: As for people much more educated, that's a similar but tangential argument. People who put in their time and money to be educated and become experts/pioneers in their field should be compensated appropriately. This is another societal failure that needs attention.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> $27.63 is such an absurdly low amount that it wouldn't even be considered a livable wage in some major metros The exemption thresholds for computer workers in California are $53.80/hr or $9,338/mo on a salary basis, instead of the federal $27.63/hr or $684/wk on a salary basis.