5 ms·

8:30 to 5 was required, but also never working at home was required, so what I was trying to (poorly) say is that they basically expected you to live in the off

8:30 to 5 was required, but also never working at home was required, so what I was trying to (poorly) say is that they basically expected you to live in the office and never see your family. I'll update accordingly. And the comp package I turned down was about $700k at the time, which was 10 years ago. Nowadays it would be a $1M+ job easy. But not seeing my family is not worth any amount of money to me, since there are other jobs for a lot less that let me see my family and live plenty comfortably.

interactivecode 4y ago
I’ll come hangout at the office for that much, no problemo.
- poly_morphis 4y ago
  Yeah, for that compensation? No question. I'd maybe try and stay a little while past 5. Not sure how many months (years?) I'd last there though, not knowing how 'intensive' the work culture is.
  - 4ggr0 4y ago
    The comp he mentioned is almost 11x of what I make yearly. Of course I lack the skills for a c++ job, but if I worked there for a year I could go on a vacation for the next couple of years. insane.
DougN7 4y ago
That’s what we called a “regular job” 30 years ago. Work from wasn’t even an option.
- jedberg 4y ago
  That’s not true at all for white collar jobs. You’d bring your work home in a briefcase and work on it after the kids went to bed. And if was a blue collar job you got overtime. This job expected you to work onsite 80 hours a week.
  - LadyCailin 4y ago
    I would argue that getting a double salary compared to most other white collar jobs counts enough as overtime.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  30 years ago we had offices no daily standups no email and no phone on your desk. You had few or no meetings. A c++ developer requires a deep focus that a typical business 9 to 5 role doesn't
chrismcb 4y ago
Most jobs want you in the office 8 hours a day.
- cjbgkagh 4y ago
  I think it’s the long hours of abuse, not that the long hours are themselves abuse.
- jedberg 4y ago
  Yes but I think you're missing the point. It's not the eight hours, it was the specific eight hours regardless of any other work you did plus all the overtime that couldn't be done at home. ie. The complete lack of seeing one's family.
  - Xenoamorphous 4y ago
    Most of the jobs I can think have fixed working hours/shifts?
    - jedberg 4y ago
      Not most software engineering jobs. And it wasn't the fixed eight hours, it was the eight hours on top of that each day that was the problem.
      - jack_pp 4y ago
        how do you know for certain you'd be required to do overtime consistently? you've never worked in the field. I haven't either but I'm not assuming crazy stuff like being required to work 16h a day. your stance is completely unreasonable. There are other commenters who have worked in the field and said no one was expected to be in the office after normal working hours
        jiggawatts 4y ago
        Not to mention that programmers consistently doing 16 hour days would get exhausted and burnt out within a week, making their productivity plummet. No manager in their right mind would trust code from utterly exhausted people written after midnight to manage billions of dollars of capital.
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
That's not abusive. That's a rational security posture. Defense contractor employees can't take their work home either. It's nice when you can't be pressured to work off hours.
- jedberg 4y ago
  It's not rational at all. It shows a complete distrust for the employee. National security is different because the rules are imposed from the outside. These are self imposed rules. Also most defense contractor employees don't work that much overtime and many can take the non-classified parts of their work home.
  - jiggawatts 4y ago
    Let me get this straight... you turned down a nearly seven-figure income because you would be required to not work at home and you were asked to stick to the same office hours as cubible farm workers making a tenth of that income? Umm... wat!?
    - Retric 4y ago
      Income has logarithmic value. His options were to make 350k and be happy day to day or make twice that and be in an activity hostile environment. Lifestyle wise there is little meaningful difference between 350k and 700k when you don’t have much free time to spend it. Sure in theory he would be able to retire sooner etc, but retirement isn’t such a big deal if you don’t hate your job. Also, savings compounds so saving 3x as much doesn’t mean working 1/3 as long especially when you consider social security benefits etc.
    - Luc 4y ago
      I think you misunderstood. The job pressures you into overtime.
  - silverstein420 4y ago
    [flagged]
quickthrower2 4y ago
First job 8:30 - 5 in office for $35k/y and the word abuse didn’t cross my mind Edit: saw your comment it was actually 80h/w onsite. That is abuse but hey the pay is great.
- trzy 4y ago
  Most HFT shops aren’t pulling crazy hours like that. That’s a wild exaggeration. I worked far longer hours at a FAANG than I ever did as a dev on a low-latency trading desk. Nobody at the latter ever got in my face and screamed at me, either. And guess at which of the two I got an unnerving call from HR asking if I could comment as a witness about some sort of harassment/bullying complaint two coworkers were entangled in during my second week on the job. Silicon Valley sucks :)
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  My first job too. And mine was in Manhattan as well. But now I have choices, and wouldn't choose that choice again.
thinkharderdev 4y ago
> But not seeing my family is not worth any amount of money to me, since there are other jobs for a lot less that let me see my family and live plenty comfortably. That is fine and, tbh, a very healthy attitude. But it is not abusive in any meaningful sense of the word because it is not a worthwhile tradeoff for you personally.
mirekrusin 4y ago
Is cleaning lady also abused because she can't work from home?
- KronisLV 4y ago
  I read that as perhaps having to stay in the office unreasonably long at times when there's crunch towards some deadline, as opposed to going home and working remotely? I feel like software development is one of the activities that are difficult to estimate. There's scope creep and sometimes all sorts of deadlines for compliance or feature rollouts and so on, so the actual workload can vary a lot. Not saying that's okay and shouldn't be considered a planning issue, of course.
- GeoAtreides 4y ago
  Yes. She should be with her family, enjoying together their short time on Earth as much as possible, not spend 1/3+ of her life away from them. In this day and age, in this day of robotics, AI and 1% of population in agriculture, to have to work just to eat and be sheltered is abuse. It's a radical idea, I get that. Maybe one day it will be seen as a truism, or common sense.
  - mirekrusin 4y ago
    If we're talking about distant future then any form of work is abuse and access to levitating transport falls under basic human needs obviously.
    - GeoAtreides 4y ago
      No, I'm talking about right now. Or as soon as possible. There is no need, in 2023 AD, to work as hard as in the 1900 just to survive. Absolutely no need. Food and shelter could be easily provided for everyone. And if we can't "easily" provided it, then we should strive to do so. We have to shift from old patterns of thinking to new ways, we have to realize that the only thing holding us down is an outdated view of the world, more and more obsolete.

interactivecode 4y ago

I’ll come hangout at the office for that much, no problemo.

poly_morphis 4y ago
Yeah, for that compensation? No question. I'd maybe try and stay a little while past 5. Not sure how many months (years?) I'd last there though, not knowing how 'intensive' the work culture is.
- 4ggr0 4y ago
  The comp he mentioned is almost 11x of what I make yearly. Of course I lack the skills for a c++ job, but if I worked there for a year I could go on a vacation for the next couple of years. insane.

DougN7 4y ago

That’s what we called a “regular job” 30 years ago. Work from wasn’t even an option.

jedberg 4y ago
That’s not true at all for white collar jobs. You’d bring your work home in a briefcase and work on it after the kids went to bed. And if was a blue collar job you got overtime. This job expected you to work onsite 80 hours a week.
- LadyCailin 4y ago
  I would argue that getting a double salary compared to most other white collar jobs counts enough as overtime.
ipaddr 4y ago
30 years ago we had offices no daily standups no email and no phone on your desk. You had few or no meetings. A c++ developer requires a deep focus that a typical business 9 to 5 role doesn't

chrismcb 4y ago

Most jobs want you in the office 8 hours a day.

cjbgkagh 4y ago
I think it’s the long hours of abuse, not that the long hours are themselves abuse.
jedberg 4y ago
Yes but I think you're missing the point. It's not the eight hours, it was the specific eight hours regardless of any other work you did plus all the overtime that couldn't be done at home. ie. The complete lack of seeing one's family.
- Xenoamorphous 4y ago
  Most of the jobs I can think have fixed working hours/shifts?
  - jedberg 4y ago
    Not most software engineering jobs. And it wasn't the fixed eight hours, it was the eight hours on top of that each day that was the problem.
    - jack_pp 4y ago
      how do you know for certain you'd be required to do overtime consistently? you've never worked in the field. I haven't either but I'm not assuming crazy stuff like being required to work 16h a day. your stance is completely unreasonable. There are other commenters who have worked in the field and said no one was expected to be in the office after normal working hours
      - jiggawatts 4y ago
        Not to mention that programmers consistently doing 16 hour days would get exhausted and burnt out within a week, making their productivity plummet. No manager in their right mind would trust code from utterly exhausted people written after midnight to manage billions of dollars of capital.

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago

That's not abusive. That's a rational security posture. Defense contractor employees can't take their work home either. It's nice when you can't be pressured to work off hours.

jedberg 4y ago
It's not rational at all. It shows a complete distrust for the employee. National security is different because the rules are imposed from the outside. These are self imposed rules. Also most defense contractor employees don't work that much overtime and many can take the non-classified parts of their work home.
- jiggawatts 4y ago
  Let me get this straight... you turned down a nearly seven-figure income because you would be required to not work at home and you were asked to stick to the same office hours as cubible farm workers making a tenth of that income? Umm... wat!?
  - Retric 4y ago
    Income has logarithmic value. His options were to make 350k and be happy day to day or make twice that and be in an activity hostile environment. Lifestyle wise there is little meaningful difference between 350k and 700k when you don’t have much free time to spend it. Sure in theory he would be able to retire sooner etc, but retirement isn’t such a big deal if you don’t hate your job. Also, savings compounds so saving 3x as much doesn’t mean working 1/3 as long especially when you consider social security benefits etc.
  - Luc 4y ago
    I think you misunderstood. The job pressures you into overtime.
- silverstein420 4y ago
  [flagged]

quickthrower2 4y ago

First job 8:30 - 5 in office for $35k/y and the word abuse didn’t cross my mind Edit: saw your comment it was actually 80h/w onsite. That is abuse but hey the pay is great.

trzy 4y ago
Most HFT shops aren’t pulling crazy hours like that. That’s a wild exaggeration. I worked far longer hours at a FAANG than I ever did as a dev on a low-latency trading desk. Nobody at the latter ever got in my face and screamed at me, either. And guess at which of the two I got an unnerving call from HR asking if I could comment as a witness about some sort of harassment/bullying complaint two coworkers were entangled in during my second week on the job. Silicon Valley sucks :)
iancmceachern 4y ago
My first job too. And mine was in Manhattan as well. But now I have choices, and wouldn't choose that choice again.

thinkharderdev 4y ago

> But not seeing my family is not worth any amount of money to me, since there are other jobs for a lot less that let me see my family and live plenty comfortably. That is fine and, tbh, a very healthy attitude. But it is not abusive in any meaningful sense of the word because it is not a worthwhile tradeoff for you personally.

mirekrusin 4y ago

Is cleaning lady also abused because she can't work from home?

KronisLV 4y ago
I read that as perhaps having to stay in the office unreasonably long at times when there's crunch towards some deadline, as opposed to going home and working remotely? I feel like software development is one of the activities that are difficult to estimate. There's scope creep and sometimes all sorts of deadlines for compliance or feature rollouts and so on, so the actual workload can vary a lot. Not saying that's okay and shouldn't be considered a planning issue, of course.
GeoAtreides 4y ago
Yes. She should be with her family, enjoying together their short time on Earth as much as possible, not spend 1/3+ of her life away from them. In this day and age, in this day of robotics, AI and 1% of population in agriculture, to have to work just to eat and be sheltered is abuse. It's a radical idea, I get that. Maybe one day it will be seen as a truism, or common sense.
- mirekrusin 4y ago
  If we're talking about distant future then any form of work is abuse and access to levitating transport falls under basic human needs obviously.
  - GeoAtreides 4y ago
    No, I'm talking about right now. Or as soon as possible. There is no need, in 2023 AD, to work as hard as in the 1900 just to survive. Absolutely no need. Food and shelter could be easily provided for everyone. And if we can't "easily" provided it, then we should strive to do so. We have to shift from old patterns of thinking to new ways, we have to realize that the only thing holding us down is an outdated view of the world, more and more obsolete.