9 ms·

> except in the sense of trying to exploit market inefficiencies to take it that's precisely the bad part about it

nostrademons 4y ago
Well yes, but the gaming industry is all about exploiting psychological efficiencies to take your money. Big Tech (in its advertising/retail/OS forms) is all about exploiting psychological inefficiencies to help other people take your money, and then taking a cut of it.
- klik99 4y ago
  If you mean "gaming industry" meaning gambling machines, then yes. If you mean "games industry" as in video games then it's just not true that it's "all about exploiting psychological inefficiencies". There are many monetization strategies that are not exploitative that are common and even dominate in the market. Ubisoft, DLC, or Candy Crush freemium models are not representative of the whole industry.
  - nostrademons 4y ago
    AAA games with one-time payments are still exploiting psychological inefficiencies; there is a reason why we are evolutionarily hard-wired to pay attention to fast-moving visual settings where action is required from us. For those who say "but I like to play video games" - yes, that's the point. Day traders like to speculate, and gamblers like to go to the casino. Your downside is capped with one-time payments, but a gambler who goes into the casino with a $20 and no other money also has a capped downside.
    - klik99 4y ago
      Unless you're selling me living in a cave foraging for nuts and berries, you're trying to exploit some psychological inefficiencies. I do get what you're saying, but if you take it this far then literally everything sold is considered exploiting inefficacies, psychological or biological, and it's kind of a useless statement in the context of comparing markets, only useful as part of an overall critique of capitalism. All I meant was the games industry gets a very bad rap for being dopamine driven skinner box design and it simply isn't true, and being in the industry for 15+ years I have met very few people who are comfortable exploiting psychological effects for gain. If I was in a different part of the industry I probably would have met a lot of people who ARE comfortable with that. It is there. But it is far from "running solely on" that attitude.
    - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
      Arguing that one-time payments with up-front pricing are exploitative is pretty silly. That's the basis for the entire economy since we invented money thousands of years ago. If it's exploitative then you're basically lumping all economic transactions into the same bucket, which makes it fairly meaningless.
      - sshnuke 4y ago
        so gaming addiction is also a silly argument?
      - jcelerier 4y ago
        > That's the basis for the entire economy this close to getting it
dahfizz 4y ago
How does your employer pay you if they don't take money from anyone?
- stouset 4y ago
  By providing a service to customers, rather than finding ways to skim money off the top of markets?
  - nostrademons 4y ago
    If you ask most financial institutions they would say the service they provide is "liquidity" - they let you put your money in or take your money out at any time (in exchange for securities), as well as make decisions about where you want to allocate your capital based on your personal view of the world. This always fell a little flat to me (hence why I left the financial industry early in my career), but it's pretty analogous to merchants or retail. What service does a storefront provide, other than marking up the wholesale price of a good by 3x? They offer convenience - you can buy anything you want at the time you want it just by picking it up and swiping a credit card, vs. having to contract with a wholesaler for delivery, which might be months in the future, at a place that's convenient for the wholesaler, and needing to buy in quantities that no individual really needs. So it is with brokerages & exchanges - they let you buy any security with a couple clicks of a button, vs. needing to get an ISDA and pay a lawyer to write a contract, plus find someone else that wants to trade with you, plus take on the risk that your counterparty goes insolvent. And so it is with market-makers like Citadel or Jane Street: they ensure that you can always find a buyer for your securities (for a price), and that you don't have to worry that about simply not being able to sell stocks at any price.
    - stouset 4y ago
      The average retail investor just does not need that much liquidity, especially if they're not buying individual stocks (which by and large they shouldn't be).
      - 4y ago
lopatin 4y ago
Sorry what’s bad about making profit from market inefficiencies?
- saagarjha 4y ago
  It’s not something that drives obvious value for people.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
    Don't throw rocks in a glass house, a lot of shit software engineers do does not stove obvious value for people.
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      Hey, I'm not giving software engineers a free pass either.
jeffreygoesto 4y ago
Exploiting information asymmetries to funnel other people's money into your pocket before or without them knowing it. No value had been generated, it's just extraction.

Well yes, but the gaming industry is all about exploiting psychological efficiencies to take your money. Big Tech (in its advertising/retail/OS forms) is all about exploiting psychological inefficiencies to help other people take your money, and then taking a cut of it.

klik99 4y ago
If you mean "gaming industry" meaning gambling machines, then yes. If you mean "games industry" as in video games then it's just not true that it's "all about exploiting psychological inefficiencies". There are many monetization strategies that are not exploitative that are common and even dominate in the market. Ubisoft, DLC, or Candy Crush freemium models are not representative of the whole industry.
- nostrademons 4y ago
  AAA games with one-time payments are still exploiting psychological inefficiencies; there is a reason why we are evolutionarily hard-wired to pay attention to fast-moving visual settings where action is required from us. For those who say "but I like to play video games" - yes, that's the point. Day traders like to speculate, and gamblers like to go to the casino. Your downside is capped with one-time payments, but a gambler who goes into the casino with a $20 and no other money also has a capped downside.
  - klik99 4y ago
    Unless you're selling me living in a cave foraging for nuts and berries, you're trying to exploit some psychological inefficiencies. I do get what you're saying, but if you take it this far then literally everything sold is considered exploiting inefficacies, psychological or biological, and it's kind of a useless statement in the context of comparing markets, only useful as part of an overall critique of capitalism. All I meant was the games industry gets a very bad rap for being dopamine driven skinner box design and it simply isn't true, and being in the industry for 15+ years I have met very few people who are comfortable exploiting psychological effects for gain. If I was in a different part of the industry I probably would have met a lot of people who ARE comfortable with that. It is there. But it is far from "running solely on" that attitude.
  - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
    Arguing that one-time payments with up-front pricing are exploitative is pretty silly. That's the basis for the entire economy since we invented money thousands of years ago. If it's exploitative then you're basically lumping all economic transactions into the same bucket, which makes it fairly meaningless.
    - sshnuke 4y ago
      so gaming addiction is also a silly argument?
    - jcelerier 4y ago
      > That's the basis for the entire economy this close to getting it

dahfizz 4y ago

How does your employer pay you if they don't take money from anyone?

stouset 4y ago
By providing a service to customers, rather than finding ways to skim money off the top of markets?
- nostrademons 4y ago
  If you ask most financial institutions they would say the service they provide is "liquidity" - they let you put your money in or take your money out at any time (in exchange for securities), as well as make decisions about where you want to allocate your capital based on your personal view of the world. This always fell a little flat to me (hence why I left the financial industry early in my career), but it's pretty analogous to merchants or retail. What service does a storefront provide, other than marking up the wholesale price of a good by 3x? They offer convenience - you can buy anything you want at the time you want it just by picking it up and swiping a credit card, vs. having to contract with a wholesaler for delivery, which might be months in the future, at a place that's convenient for the wholesaler, and needing to buy in quantities that no individual really needs. So it is with brokerages & exchanges - they let you buy any security with a couple clicks of a button, vs. needing to get an ISDA and pay a lawyer to write a contract, plus find someone else that wants to trade with you, plus take on the risk that your counterparty goes insolvent. And so it is with market-makers like Citadel or Jane Street: they ensure that you can always find a buyer for your securities (for a price), and that you don't have to worry that about simply not being able to sell stocks at any price.
  - stouset 4y ago
    The average retail investor just does not need that much liquidity, especially if they're not buying individual stocks (which by and large they shouldn't be).
    - 4y ago

lopatin 4y ago

Sorry what’s bad about making profit from market inefficiencies?

saagarjha 4y ago
It’s not something that drives obvious value for people.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
  Don't throw rocks in a glass house, a lot of shit software engineers do does not stove obvious value for people.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    Hey, I'm not giving software engineers a free pass either.

jeffreygoesto 4y ago

Exploiting information asymmetries to funnel other people's money into your pocket before or without them knowing it. No value had been generated, it's just extraction.