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Which makes no sense to me. Isn't C++ harder and demand better programming chops?

lelanthran 4y ago
> Which makes no sense to me. Isn't C++ harder and demand better programming chops? Sure, and a scalpel is a lot sharper and more precise than a lawnmower. Which one do you think will result in more expensive lawn maintenance?
shoo 4y ago
C++ isn't necessary in many business contexts, and can result a worse business overall outcome than alternatives. If it's a harder tool for people to use, and the use of the hard tool isn't necessary, why would you use it? Why not use an easy tool? Especially if the easy tool means more people can wield it, so there's a wider labor pool to draw from, or a reduced error rate from tool-difficulty-induced defects. Indeed, many businesses correctly decide there's no benefit to using a difficult tool that isn't required, and choose an easier tool that produces a better business outcome. e.g. suppose you're a non-tech enterprise (bank, utility, etc) and you need to build a bunch of backend web services to support your internal operations. If you decide to implement them in Go, which is arguably a domain specific language for building web services, then you can probably deliver the project by hiring a bunch of fresh grads and putting one intermediate to senior programmer in place to lead the effort, even if no one has any Go experience. arguably if you try to deliver the same business outcome in a random enterprise context using C++, a project team will likely have a far more difficult time getting basic HTTP / TLS server stuff in place, and if there's lots of rookies on the team, they'll keep making foot-gun memory error mistakes. Sure, maybe if it was built in C++ by highly senior engineers, and subjected to a thorough QA process, you could end up with a system that's much more efficient at runtime than what could be cobbled together by less experienced engineers with an easier language and a good standard library. But in most business settings efficiency isn't the bottleneck, it's delivery speed and then maintenance costs, which are driven by staffing and how expensive it is to change the code each time the requirements change.
Shorel 4y ago
As someone who still uses it? Not really. I've spent more time debugging JavaScript than debugging C++. It used to be hard. Modern C++ is actually a quite pleasant language. The issue is libraries. For example, one very basic functionality of any programming language is DB connection. In particular, MySQL is very widely used. The C++ libraries (c++ connector) are older, less maintained and just plain broken in the last Ubuntu (it's Oracle's fault, and that can't be helped). They are more stable in Python, for example. The reason is trying to force SSL, reading the source code of the C++ connector it's clear it was intentional. So, for many things that should have a well maintained library, there's actually not a good C++ one. Web servers are another example. There are only one or two libraries, very opinionated and with "proprietary" widgets, and that's it. Nothing comparable to Laravel or FastAPI. In other words: the language is fine. C++ is a fine language with a fast runtime, and modern practices and implementations are pleasant to use. It's the disregarded ecosystem in C++ the one that needs improvements. Libraries, package management, build systems, etc. Even then, for performance, some things are only available in C++.

> Which makes no sense to me. Isn't C++ harder and demand better programming chops? Sure, and a scalpel is a lot sharper and more precise than a lawnmower. Which one do you think will result in more expensive lawn maintenance?

shoo 4y ago

C++ isn't necessary in many business contexts, and can result a worse business overall outcome than alternatives. If it's a harder tool for people to use, and the use of the hard tool isn't necessary, why would you use it? Why not use an easy tool? Especially if the easy tool means more people can wield it, so there's a wider labor pool to draw from, or a reduced error rate from tool-difficulty-induced defects. Indeed, many businesses correctly decide there's no benefit to using a difficult tool that isn't required, and choose an easier tool that produces a better business outcome. e.g. suppose you're a non-tech enterprise (bank, utility, etc) and you need to build a bunch of backend web services to support your internal operations. If you decide to implement them in Go, which is arguably a domain specific language for building web services, then you can probably deliver the project by hiring a bunch of fresh grads and putting one intermediate to senior programmer in place to lead the effort, even if no one has any Go experience. arguably if you try to deliver the same business outcome in a random enterprise context using C++, a project team will likely have a far more difficult time getting basic HTTP / TLS server stuff in place, and if there's lots of rookies on the team, they'll keep making foot-gun memory error mistakes. Sure, maybe if it was built in C++ by highly senior engineers, and subjected to a thorough QA process, you could end up with a system that's much more efficient at runtime than what could be cobbled together by less experienced engineers with an easier language and a good standard library. But in most business settings efficiency isn't the bottleneck, it's delivery speed and then maintenance costs, which are driven by staffing and how expensive it is to change the code each time the requirements change.

Shorel 4y ago

As someone who still uses it? Not really. I've spent more time debugging JavaScript than debugging C++. It used to be hard. Modern C++ is actually a quite pleasant language. The issue is libraries. For example, one very basic functionality of any programming language is DB connection. In particular, MySQL is very widely used. The C++ libraries (c++ connector) are older, less maintained and just plain broken in the last Ubuntu (it's Oracle's fault, and that can't be helped). They are more stable in Python, for example. The reason is trying to force SSL, reading the source code of the C++ connector it's clear it was intentional. So, for many things that should have a well maintained library, there's actually not a good C++ one. Web servers are another example. There are only one or two libraries, very opinionated and with "proprietary" widgets, and that's it. Nothing comparable to Laravel or FastAPI. In other words: the language is fine. C++ is a fine language with a fast runtime, and modern practices and implementations are pleasant to use. It's the disregarded ecosystem in C++ the one that needs improvements. Libraries, package management, build systems, etc. Even then, for performance, some things are only available in C++.