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I'm curious about why. It seems like the economics of supply and demand should make it so that C++ roles pay higher. There's less C++ devs, C++ is harder, dema

I'm curious about why. It seems like the economics of supply and demand should make it so that C++ roles pay higher. There's less C++ devs, C++ is harder, demand is still high. Why are the salaries low?

Justsignedup 4y ago
there's another factor: age If I am a C++ developer, in my late 50s, close to retirement, and know C++ fairly well, don't want to learn a brand new system which I won't be coding in for much longer, and already have my financials all set... I won't be looking for that early retirement big cash payouts. I just want my flow of cash for a good retirement, to go on my vacations, and to buy gifts for the kids / grandkids. I'd be willing to settle for a lower pay with low stress and solid job security. Remember the desires of people later in life and those early in life aren't the same. If you got 10 more years of work left, you don't want to be in a high stakes high intensity work environment. I worked with one such man. He'd fall asleep while coding mid day. Nobody bothered him. He just chipped away at his projects at his own pace and was happy to not be bothered. Sounds like such a company is looking for a boomer/genx who's still got skills and willing to settle for not being bothered too much.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  Related to age factors: so long as the "primary" development language for videogames remains C++ there's always going to be a multi-generational talent pool for C++. Young naive programmers get into videogames until they burn out or are laid off due to ageism then there's "always" "fresh" new C++ talent for other industries too immediately following those videogame roles (assuming the burnout isn't total, such as strokes). COBOL got to where it is when there stopped being entry level jobs for it. Videogames keep a massive entry level door (full of "passion") open for C++. That's going to "naturally" keep C++ development salaries low for the foreseeable future.
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    Oh interesting. You think videogames are influencing the rest of the industry? That actually makes a lot of sense. Are there other sources (articles, research, blogposts) that talk about this?
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > Related to age factors: so long as the "primary" development language for videogames remains C++ there's always going to be a multi-generational talent pool for C++. Young naive programmers get into videogames until they burn out or are laid off due to ageism then there's "always" "fresh" new C++ talent for other industries too immediately following those videogame roles (assuming the burnout isn't total, such as strokes). > COBOL got to where it is when there stopped being entry level jobs for it. Videogames keep a massive entry level door (full of "passion") open for C++. That's going to "naturally" keep C++ development salaries low for the foreseeable future. Not anymore. I am frequenting gamedev forums, and reading gamedev chatter in general (seeing youtube videos on game conferences, presentations on games development, etc). Maybe 1 in 10 of the people in these gamedev places actually program in C++. Mostly they'll use Unity (C#) or Unreal Engine Blueprints, with some Godot getting popular and a few statistical-noise engines being used (Love2d, etc). What you are saying used to be true; on gamedev forums almost everyone used to be able to program in C++. Now very few do.
    - amyjess 4y ago
      My question is what engines are the AAA companies hiring people to work with? Yes, Unity is the default engine in the indie scene, but what are EA, Ubisoft, Embracer, Take Two, etc. hiring people to work with? Because these are the meat grinders who hire fresh college grads by the hundreds and work them like oxen until they burn out.
      - lelanthran 4y ago
        Good point. I've been looking almost exclusively at small teams. I wonder how many programmers are used at the AAA publishers. Maybe someone on HN who works as a gamedev (ISTR one or two people in the past saying that they worked for AAA developers) can answer that one.
gen220 4y ago
It's a demand side issue. Most C++ jobs are maintenance jobs. Most maintenance jobs are at low-growth companies who can't justify the TC of engineers at high-growth companies to their board. There are pockets of the C++ ecosystem where this isn't true (e.g. HFT). But bottom-line, it's a business thing, not a skills thing. There are also a lot more C++ devs than the zeitgeist would suggest. Far too many to cause a "COBOL effect" where supply constraints on talent dictate market price.
bluedino 4y ago
The other thing is the budget. Is the C++ product a $5 million dollar product or $500 million?
pyb 4y ago
It goes to show that the demand for C++ is not actually that high.
jcelerier 4y ago
Are there really less? In the school I did in france you leave having some experience in c, c++, java, some python, some lisp.. not js or rust

Justsignedup 4y ago

there's another factor: age If I am a C++ developer, in my late 50s, close to retirement, and know C++ fairly well, don't want to learn a brand new system which I won't be coding in for much longer, and already have my financials all set... I won't be looking for that early retirement big cash payouts. I just want my flow of cash for a good retirement, to go on my vacations, and to buy gifts for the kids / grandkids. I'd be willing to settle for a lower pay with low stress and solid job security. Remember the desires of people later in life and those early in life aren't the same. If you got 10 more years of work left, you don't want to be in a high stakes high intensity work environment. I worked with one such man. He'd fall asleep while coding mid day. Nobody bothered him. He just chipped away at his projects at his own pace and was happy to not be bothered. Sounds like such a company is looking for a boomer/genx who's still got skills and willing to settle for not being bothered too much.

WorldMaker 4y ago
Related to age factors: so long as the "primary" development language for videogames remains C++ there's always going to be a multi-generational talent pool for C++. Young naive programmers get into videogames until they burn out or are laid off due to ageism then there's "always" "fresh" new C++ talent for other industries too immediately following those videogame roles (assuming the burnout isn't total, such as strokes). COBOL got to where it is when there stopped being entry level jobs for it. Videogames keep a massive entry level door (full of "passion") open for C++. That's going to "naturally" keep C++ development salaries low for the foreseeable future.
- kilgnad 4y ago
  Oh interesting. You think videogames are influencing the rest of the industry? That actually makes a lot of sense. Are there other sources (articles, research, blogposts) that talk about this?
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > Related to age factors: so long as the "primary" development language for videogames remains C++ there's always going to be a multi-generational talent pool for C++. Young naive programmers get into videogames until they burn out or are laid off due to ageism then there's "always" "fresh" new C++ talent for other industries too immediately following those videogame roles (assuming the burnout isn't total, such as strokes). > COBOL got to where it is when there stopped being entry level jobs for it. Videogames keep a massive entry level door (full of "passion") open for C++. That's going to "naturally" keep C++ development salaries low for the foreseeable future. Not anymore. I am frequenting gamedev forums, and reading gamedev chatter in general (seeing youtube videos on game conferences, presentations on games development, etc). Maybe 1 in 10 of the people in these gamedev places actually program in C++. Mostly they'll use Unity (C#) or Unreal Engine Blueprints, with some Godot getting popular and a few statistical-noise engines being used (Love2d, etc). What you are saying used to be true; on gamedev forums almost everyone used to be able to program in C++. Now very few do.
  - amyjess 4y ago
    My question is what engines are the AAA companies hiring people to work with? Yes, Unity is the default engine in the indie scene, but what are EA, Ubisoft, Embracer, Take Two, etc. hiring people to work with? Because these are the meat grinders who hire fresh college grads by the hundreds and work them like oxen until they burn out.
    - lelanthran 4y ago
      Good point. I've been looking almost exclusively at small teams. I wonder how many programmers are used at the AAA publishers. Maybe someone on HN who works as a gamedev (ISTR one or two people in the past saying that they worked for AAA developers) can answer that one.

gen220 4y ago

It's a demand side issue. Most C++ jobs are maintenance jobs. Most maintenance jobs are at low-growth companies who can't justify the TC of engineers at high-growth companies to their board. There are pockets of the C++ ecosystem where this isn't true (e.g. HFT). But bottom-line, it's a business thing, not a skills thing. There are also a lot more C++ devs than the zeitgeist would suggest. Far too many to cause a "COBOL effect" where supply constraints on talent dictate market price.

bluedino 4y ago

The other thing is the budget. Is the C++ product a $5 million dollar product or $500 million?

pyb 4y ago

It goes to show that the demand for C++ is not actually that high.

jcelerier 4y ago

Are there really less? In the school I did in france you leave having some experience in c, c++, java, some python, some lisp.. not js or rust