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> the alternative is violence or unionization, neither of which are optimal in resolving disputes like these in a civilized and efficient manner. Unionization

> the alternative is violence or unionization, neither of which are optimal in resolving disputes like these in a civilized and efficient manner. Unionization is a great way of solving disputes. Many big corporations need to be counter-weight with some other big organization. To put violence and unions at the same level seems uncalled for.

Idk__Throwaway 4y ago
> Many big corporations need to be counter-weight with some other big organization. Such as labor boards, or rather the government that gives them power.
bmitc 4y ago
A lot of unions directly block solving disputes, choosing instead to deny all disputes. I know one union that was perfectly happy letting government workers make sox figures while "working" from home, while they produced objectively zero work over a period of months. These were the type of workers that would keep government equipment after retiring, quitting, or rarely being fired, requiring the government to send officers to collect. Any movement towards trying to get the workers to do literally anything or simply rating them low was met with vehement pushback. Like a union representative storming into you're office and yelling. In this case, the union was a giant ball of mud whose only existence was to hold the government hostage. As much as I dislike Thune power corporations can hold, unions are not a fix all and can become the same overlords.
- hourago 4y ago
  > I know one union that was perfectly happy letting government workers make sox figures while "working" from home, while they produced objectively zero work over a period of months. "Companies save billions of dollars by giving employees fake “manager” titles" is fraud. If you do not like unions because ONE did something that you do not like , how much do you hate companies were you have thousands of examples of bad behavior? > As much as I dislike Thune power corporations can hold, unions are not a fix all and can become the same overlords. I do not know what concept do you have about unions, but it seems come from anti-union propaganda and not from any reasonable definition of what a union is. Unions gave us the eight hour work week, vacations and many more rights. That is not "overlord" behavior but being able to negotiate with powerful corporations.
  - wobbly_bush 4y ago
    >If you do not like unions because ONE did something that you do not like Not the person you are replying to, but I think discounting the behavior of unions as one-off is not helping. The examples I have are from outside US though - there are entire states where union presence is strong. Those states had a good industrial sector but over several decades the unions made it so problematic for the industries there that majority of businesses moved to states where there were no unions. Public calls for "strikes" and other work-stopping behavior and violence is common occurence in those states. So the risk of a union becoming mafia-like is more than just propaganda - it has plenty of examples worldwide in several countries.
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    On hackernews most of the complaints I see about unions are people who've had direct experience with unions. My experience with unions was they were shady, jobs were given out based on nepotism, work was given out solely based on seniority and most work you did for them involved kickbacks.
    - drewcoo 4y ago
      We must read different HNs. Most of the what I see is anti-union FUD from people raised on horror stories about unions but without any actual contact with them except for possibly being inconvenienced by someone else's strike.
    - quantified 4y ago
      I have direct experience with both types of unions and it's super frustrating. SF labor unions whose members threaten you with violence over who can move your own property to your car: screw them. Harvard University union trying to get basic benefits for staff of which my wife was one: love them. Every system is only as good as the people in them.
  - bmitc 4y ago
    I described something that literally took place, and the behavior was performed by a union, not me. This isn't propaganda. It is a description of something that happened involving a union. If I am anti anything, it is anti-"institutions that have mismatched incentives and conflicts of interest", and so that involves both corporations and unions, but not all of them. Note that my original comment said very clearly that "unions are not a fix all and can become the same overlords". Your comment that I replied to seemed to imply that unions are a silver bullet that fixes anything wrong with corporation and worker relations, and that is what I was replying to that that is not always the case. There are plenty examples of this.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  Generally I am more suspicious of public sector unions than private. The power of private sector unions is counterbalanced by the profit motive of the company; meanwhile governments are often perfectly happy wasting a fortune in taxpayer dollars.
  - acdha 4y ago
    To the extent that the government wastes money, why should we believe that's due to a union and not unrelated issues such as outside politics?
    - kennend3 4y ago
      https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-union-wants-47-compensation-increase https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-union-wants-4... You tell us, is a 47% increase in pay "normal"? why did the body intended to help with the negotiations write this: The union’s proposals “do not appear realistic for what should be a fairly advanced stage of negotiations. The numerous proposals are not focused and they would result in an increase to compensation far beyond what is reasonable,” reads the unanimous report signed by three commissioners.
      - mistrial9 4y ago
        Conrad Black built the National Post around the Financial Post, a financial newspaper in Toronto which Hollinger Inc. purchased from Sun Media in 1997. Financial Post was retained as the name of the new newspaper's business section. Beyond his political vision, Black attempted to compete directly with Kenneth Thomson's media empire led in Canada by The Globe and Mail, which Black and many others perceived as the platform of the Liberal establishment. --wikipedia
        kennend3 4y ago
        The point you are attempting to make is unclear?? Is your point that you can copy/paste from wikipedia and provide no actual commentary??
- kennend3 4y ago
  You can simply step back and watch what is taking place in Canada right now. https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-union-wants-47-compensation-increase https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-union-wants-4... Because it is not going anywhere, they had an independent body get involved, their commentary says it all: "The union’s proposals “do not appear realistic for what should be a fairly advanced stage of negotiations. The numerous proposals are not focused and they would result in an increase to compensation far beyond what is reasonable,” reads the unanimous report signed by three commissioners." These same union employees are also fighting "unilateral contract changes" that mandates they return to the office, but did not fight the unilateral contract changes that allowed them to WFH in the first place? The contract they signed was for "IN_PERSON" work, so they are simply being asked to do what they signed up for prior to COVID.
  - bawolff 4y ago
    > would result in an increase to compensation far beyond what is reasonable Its a negotiation. The union asking for the highest number it can get is what its supposed to do.
    - bmitc 4y ago
      > Its a negotiation. Only relevant in a spirit-like sense, but reading this line immediately reminded me of this scene in Intolerable Cruelty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpQk63iIWw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpQk63iIWw
  - cool_dude85 4y ago
    >These same union employees are also fighting "unilateral contract changes" that mandates they return to the office, but did not fight the unilateral contract changes that allowed them to WFH in the first place? Huh? They fight against contract changes they don't like, and don't fight against contract changes they do like? Sounds pretty crazy to me.
- bmitc 4y ago
  Apologies for the phone-based typos. Corrections: sox -> six, you're -> your, and Thune -> the.
HEmanZ 4y ago
Unionization can have serious problems/risks. I this case, where the business is literally breaking the law, there is no need to get a union involved. Wage theft is illegal. It should be treated as a legal issue where the state gets involved and uses its monopoly on force to enforce the law. That's what the state is there for. [Aside, putting violence at the same level as unions: I've been around a union, while working in a factory in the midwest US, that had "kneebreakers" that "encouraged" members to vote a certain way by threat-of-force, support certain candidates for union leadership, and used the Union to blatantly extort local businesses and politicians. Not every union is like this, but blue-collar unions in the US have a history of going this way. Which, even tho I like unionization in theory and cheer a bit inside when I see union action at e.g Starbucks or Amazon, I have seen a very terrible union and so they scare me.]
- drewcoo 4y ago
  Labor laws didn't happen because of noble-minded politicians or kind-hearted captains of industry.
- 93po 4y ago
  Wage theft is overwhelmingly not enforced, and it's the largest form of theft in the country. Until this is not the case, unions are the best option.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
WesternWind 4y ago
Folks with union jobs tend do better then their same industry non union counterparts, in terms of wages, health care, access to sick days, etc. There is however a third choice, which is government regulation. Unfortunately government regulations can't adapt as quickly as a union can to changes. Maybe the relatively inflexibility of regulation is what is needed to maintain a minimum necessary commitment to living wages and reasonable benefits though.
- fooker 4y ago
  > Folks with union jobs tend do better Just like planes which survived battles only had bullet marks on their wings.

Idk__Throwaway 4y ago

> Many big corporations need to be counter-weight with some other big organization. Such as labor boards, or rather the government that gives them power.

bmitc 4y ago

A lot of unions directly block solving disputes, choosing instead to deny all disputes. I know one union that was perfectly happy letting government workers make sox figures while "working" from home, while they produced objectively zero work over a period of months. These were the type of workers that would keep government equipment after retiring, quitting, or rarely being fired, requiring the government to send officers to collect. Any movement towards trying to get the workers to do literally anything or simply rating them low was met with vehement pushback. Like a union representative storming into you're office and yelling. In this case, the union was a giant ball of mud whose only existence was to hold the government hostage. As much as I dislike Thune power corporations can hold, unions are not a fix all and can become the same overlords.

hourago 4y ago
> I know one union that was perfectly happy letting government workers make sox figures while "working" from home, while they produced objectively zero work over a period of months. "Companies save billions of dollars by giving employees fake “manager” titles" is fraud. If you do not like unions because ONE did something that you do not like , how much do you hate companies were you have thousands of examples of bad behavior? > As much as I dislike Thune power corporations can hold, unions are not a fix all and can become the same overlords. I do not know what concept do you have about unions, but it seems come from anti-union propaganda and not from any reasonable definition of what a union is. Unions gave us the eight hour work week, vacations and many more rights. That is not "overlord" behavior but being able to negotiate with powerful corporations.
- wobbly_bush 4y ago
  >If you do not like unions because ONE did something that you do not like Not the person you are replying to, but I think discounting the behavior of unions as one-off is not helping. The examples I have are from outside US though - there are entire states where union presence is strong. Those states had a good industrial sector but over several decades the unions made it so problematic for the industries there that majority of businesses moved to states where there were no unions. Public calls for "strikes" and other work-stopping behavior and violence is common occurence in those states. So the risk of a union becoming mafia-like is more than just propaganda - it has plenty of examples worldwide in several countries.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  On hackernews most of the complaints I see about unions are people who've had direct experience with unions. My experience with unions was they were shady, jobs were given out based on nepotism, work was given out solely based on seniority and most work you did for them involved kickbacks.
  - drewcoo 4y ago
    We must read different HNs. Most of the what I see is anti-union FUD from people raised on horror stories about unions but without any actual contact with them except for possibly being inconvenienced by someone else's strike.
  - quantified 4y ago
    I have direct experience with both types of unions and it's super frustrating. SF labor unions whose members threaten you with violence over who can move your own property to your car: screw them. Harvard University union trying to get basic benefits for staff of which my wife was one: love them. Every system is only as good as the people in them.
- bmitc 4y ago
  I described something that literally took place, and the behavior was performed by a union, not me. This isn't propaganda. It is a description of something that happened involving a union. If I am anti anything, it is anti-"institutions that have mismatched incentives and conflicts of interest", and so that involves both corporations and unions, but not all of them. Note that my original comment said very clearly that "unions are not a fix all and can become the same overlords". Your comment that I replied to seemed to imply that unions are a silver bullet that fixes anything wrong with corporation and worker relations, and that is what I was replying to that that is not always the case. There are plenty examples of this.
Georgelemental 4y ago
Generally I am more suspicious of public sector unions than private. The power of private sector unions is counterbalanced by the profit motive of the company; meanwhile governments are often perfectly happy wasting a fortune in taxpayer dollars.
- acdha 4y ago
  To the extent that the government wastes money, why should we believe that's due to a union and not unrelated issues such as outside politics?
  - kennend3 4y ago
    https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-union-wants-47-compensation-increase https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-union-wants-4... You tell us, is a 47% increase in pay "normal"? why did the body intended to help with the negotiations write this: The union’s proposals “do not appear realistic for what should be a fairly advanced stage of negotiations. The numerous proposals are not focused and they would result in an increase to compensation far beyond what is reasonable,” reads the unanimous report signed by three commissioners.
    - mistrial9 4y ago
      Conrad Black built the National Post around the Financial Post, a financial newspaper in Toronto which Hollinger Inc. purchased from Sun Media in 1997. Financial Post was retained as the name of the new newspaper's business section. Beyond his political vision, Black attempted to compete directly with Kenneth Thomson's media empire led in Canada by The Globe and Mail, which Black and many others perceived as the platform of the Liberal establishment. --wikipedia
      - kennend3 4y ago
        The point you are attempting to make is unclear?? Is your point that you can copy/paste from wikipedia and provide no actual commentary??
kennend3 4y ago
You can simply step back and watch what is taking place in Canada right now. https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-union-wants-47-compensation-increase https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-union-wants-4... Because it is not going anywhere, they had an independent body get involved, their commentary says it all: "The union’s proposals “do not appear realistic for what should be a fairly advanced stage of negotiations. The numerous proposals are not focused and they would result in an increase to compensation far beyond what is reasonable,” reads the unanimous report signed by three commissioners." These same union employees are also fighting "unilateral contract changes" that mandates they return to the office, but did not fight the unilateral contract changes that allowed them to WFH in the first place? The contract they signed was for "IN_PERSON" work, so they are simply being asked to do what they signed up for prior to COVID.
- bawolff 4y ago
  > would result in an increase to compensation far beyond what is reasonable Its a negotiation. The union asking for the highest number it can get is what its supposed to do.
  - bmitc 4y ago
    > Its a negotiation. Only relevant in a spirit-like sense, but reading this line immediately reminded me of this scene in Intolerable Cruelty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpQk63iIWw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpQk63iIWw
- cool_dude85 4y ago
  >These same union employees are also fighting "unilateral contract changes" that mandates they return to the office, but did not fight the unilateral contract changes that allowed them to WFH in the first place? Huh? They fight against contract changes they don't like, and don't fight against contract changes they do like? Sounds pretty crazy to me.
bmitc 4y ago
Apologies for the phone-based typos. Corrections: sox -> six, you're -> your, and Thune -> the.

HEmanZ 4y ago

Unionization can have serious problems/risks. I this case, where the business is literally breaking the law, there is no need to get a union involved. Wage theft is illegal. It should be treated as a legal issue where the state gets involved and uses its monopoly on force to enforce the law. That's what the state is there for. [Aside, putting violence at the same level as unions: I've been around a union, while working in a factory in the midwest US, that had "kneebreakers" that "encouraged" members to vote a certain way by threat-of-force, support certain candidates for union leadership, and used the Union to blatantly extort local businesses and politicians. Not every union is like this, but blue-collar unions in the US have a history of going this way. Which, even tho I like unionization in theory and cheer a bit inside when I see union action at e.g Starbucks or Amazon, I have seen a very terrible union and so they scare me.]

drewcoo 4y ago
Labor laws didn't happen because of noble-minded politicians or kind-hearted captains of industry.
93po 4y ago
Wage theft is overwhelmingly not enforced, and it's the largest form of theft in the country. Until this is not the case, unions are the best option.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

WesternWind 4y ago

Folks with union jobs tend do better then their same industry non union counterparts, in terms of wages, health care, access to sick days, etc. There is however a third choice, which is government regulation. Unfortunately government regulations can't adapt as quickly as a union can to changes. Maybe the relatively inflexibility of regulation is what is needed to maintain a minimum necessary commitment to living wages and reasonable benefits though.

fooker 4y ago
> Folks with union jobs tend do better Just like planes which survived battles only had bullet marks on their wings.