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> It would be one of the top ten defining moments of the 20th century, and would have changed the world as much as 9/11 changed ours. I think the impact of 9/1

> It would be one of the top ten defining moments of the 20th century, and would have changed the world as much as 9/11 changed ours. I think the impact of 9/11 is exaggerated. It may have been traumatic for Americans, and to a lesser degree Europeans, but in the grand scheme of things its impact has been limited.

hyperman1 4y ago
I don't think the physical impact of 9/11 was that important. 3000 or so lives is nothing in the grand scheme of things. The main immediate impact of 9/11 was demonstrating the USA was vulnerable. Before, they always managed to do their fighting in other countries. As a result 1) the USA had a serious need to prove their power. They received a challenge which could not stay unanswered. 2) Europe and the 1st world in general tried to let the US kick around and prove themselves, without starting a world war, and without being dragged into it themselves. They all had similar moments in their own history, and understood how other nations would just not care as much as the receiving nation did. 3) The moslim world saw their biggest enemy receive a kick in the balls, and loved it. It was a great morale booster for them. The US could be hurt. Long term impact was reducing the values of the enlightenment and western civilization. The US was seen torturing random people, starting a war against the wrong enemy, and limiting all kinds of freedom while claiming to be still free. They lost claims to moral superiority almost anywhere. The overton window shifted away from 'everyone has rights' and towards 'might makes right'.
darthrupert 4y ago
That's one possibility. The other one is that the world was moving towards peace and 9/11 completely unhinged USA, leading them to make almost completely unjustified wars against Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria in an effort to capture or kill a handful of people. The current situation in Europe is pretty much a straight continuation from all that. In short, it pretty much fucked every good thing the fall of USSR achieved on this planet.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  9/11 was only the latest, albeit most spectacular, attack against the US. The conflict with Djihadist movements did not start on 9/11. All of those conflicts started decades earlier, with oil in the Middle East and the creation of Israel. 9/11 did not profoundly change things.
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
The lasting impact of 9/11: - financial: the forever wars of Iraq / Afghanistan are somewhere around, per google, 8 trillion dollars. In terms of global warming mitigation then (yeah, it would never have been spent on that) or in terms of opportunity costs of budgeting now and the near future, that is a huge loss. That is a quarter of the current US debt (31.5 trillion dollars). It is a almost a third of our annual GDP. - freedom: it instituted dangerous protocols for surveillance, jailing of US citizens without trial, assassination of US citizens without trial (Obama), the "enemy combatant" designation, mainstreamed use of torture and extraordinary rendition. I'm no war historian, but I think the only other war that resulted in such massive expansion of federal government power, and the creation of agencies to exert such power, was WWII with the beginnings of the CIA and NSA. Did Vietnam or Korea result in such expansions and institutions? - trust: granted we always had an iffy relationship with this with banana republic atrocities, supporting dictators, the Shah of Iran, etc, but Iraq really destroyed a lot of American standing worldwide, and considering the immediate aftermath of 9/11 was a surge of sympathy/support, that says something. America arguably lost a huge amount of it's soft power. Everyone knew it was an imperialist grab of oil by oilmen in charge of the White House. Consider that this was the early days of the EU and China was on the rise. Iraq likely lead to countries seeking leadership and aid from those rather than America as a serious option.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  Most of the cost of those wars went into the pockets of US companies and contractors so they can be seen as massive subsidy packages for the US economy. If your two other points are the only consequences you can think of then it has indeed all been very limited in the grand scheme of things.
  - AtlasBarfed 4y ago
    Did they? The US sent 12 billion in cash (actual, paper cash) to Iraq and it went POOF. Weapons you fire and transport around the globe aren't free, pulling thousands of reservists from productive US jobs as cheap troops is not free. Lasting effects of PTSD and huge amounts of VA expenses for veterans is not free.

hyperman1 4y ago

I don't think the physical impact of 9/11 was that important. 3000 or so lives is nothing in the grand scheme of things. The main immediate impact of 9/11 was demonstrating the USA was vulnerable. Before, they always managed to do their fighting in other countries. As a result 1) the USA had a serious need to prove their power. They received a challenge which could not stay unanswered. 2) Europe and the 1st world in general tried to let the US kick around and prove themselves, without starting a world war, and without being dragged into it themselves. They all had similar moments in their own history, and understood how other nations would just not care as much as the receiving nation did. 3) The moslim world saw their biggest enemy receive a kick in the balls, and loved it. It was a great morale booster for them. The US could be hurt. Long term impact was reducing the values of the enlightenment and western civilization. The US was seen torturing random people, starting a war against the wrong enemy, and limiting all kinds of freedom while claiming to be still free. They lost claims to moral superiority almost anywhere. The overton window shifted away from 'everyone has rights' and towards 'might makes right'.

darthrupert 4y ago

That's one possibility. The other one is that the world was moving towards peace and 9/11 completely unhinged USA, leading them to make almost completely unjustified wars against Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria in an effort to capture or kill a handful of people. The current situation in Europe is pretty much a straight continuation from all that. In short, it pretty much fucked every good thing the fall of USSR achieved on this planet.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
9/11 was only the latest, albeit most spectacular, attack against the US. The conflict with Djihadist movements did not start on 9/11. All of those conflicts started decades earlier, with oil in the Middle East and the creation of Israel. 9/11 did not profoundly change things.

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

The lasting impact of 9/11: - financial: the forever wars of Iraq / Afghanistan are somewhere around, per google, 8 trillion dollars. In terms of global warming mitigation then (yeah, it would never have been spent on that) or in terms of opportunity costs of budgeting now and the near future, that is a huge loss. That is a quarter of the current US debt (31.5 trillion dollars). It is a almost a third of our annual GDP. - freedom: it instituted dangerous protocols for surveillance, jailing of US citizens without trial, assassination of US citizens without trial (Obama), the "enemy combatant" designation, mainstreamed use of torture and extraordinary rendition. I'm no war historian, but I think the only other war that resulted in such massive expansion of federal government power, and the creation of agencies to exert such power, was WWII with the beginnings of the CIA and NSA. Did Vietnam or Korea result in such expansions and institutions? - trust: granted we always had an iffy relationship with this with banana republic atrocities, supporting dictators, the Shah of Iran, etc, but Iraq really destroyed a lot of American standing worldwide, and considering the immediate aftermath of 9/11 was a surge of sympathy/support, that says something. America arguably lost a huge amount of it's soft power. Everyone knew it was an imperialist grab of oil by oilmen in charge of the White House. Consider that this was the early days of the EU and China was on the rise. Iraq likely lead to countries seeking leadership and aid from those rather than America as a serious option.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
Most of the cost of those wars went into the pockets of US companies and contractors so they can be seen as massive subsidy packages for the US economy. If your two other points are the only consequences you can think of then it has indeed all been very limited in the grand scheme of things.
- AtlasBarfed 4y ago
  Did they? The US sent 12 billion in cash (actual, paper cash) to Iraq and it went POOF. Weapons you fire and transport around the globe aren't free, pulling thousands of reservists from productive US jobs as cheap troops is not free. Lasting effects of PTSD and huge amounts of VA expenses for veterans is not free.