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>Curating content and setting limits on screen time is your job as a parent in this era. This, 100%! We're at the point where the tablet is for podcasts, and w

>Curating content and setting limits on screen time is your job as a parent in this era. This, 100%! We're at the point where the tablet is for podcasts, and we can watch instructional videos with a specific topic in mind (e.g. tips on drawing anime characters). And that's it. It's been a month and we saw a noticeable change literally overnight in quality and amount of sleep, quality of conversation, and the child is generally happier

alxmng 4y ago
What age are you talking about?
- passwordoops 4y ago
  9-11 To be clear, we were strict up until the pandemic when we let things slide. Then all the friends were on messenger and if that's the only source of socializing, well ok. We didn't have YT on the tablet, but through ad clicking she discovered it would sometimes open in the browser, then she just figured out how the browser works. I'd say there was close to a year of virtually unfettered access, up to 2 hours a day, always simultaneously with Messenger Kids for chatting/calling friends. Cutting off was tough, but it happened over the holidays so we all took a full digital diet, and it gave the opportunity to gently introduce the concept of addiction
  - patja 4y ago
    Curious about the use of the word messenger. Do you mean Facebook's Messenger? Isn't that only for age 13 and over?
    - adamauckland 4y ago
      > Isn't that only for age 13 and over If your child has their own tablet set to their age, sure, but I know plenty of people who just let the kids use Mom's iPad
    - theshrike79 4y ago
      All apps are 13+, it's a law thing. If companies go under that, they face intense scrutiny. Epic lost a case because of that already ($200M+ fine & years of supervision), Rovio is in hot water too. Same issue with WhatsApp for example, but it's pretty much a requirement to have any social life after first grade over here. Also there is no way for anyone except a parent to report an underage WA user, so there are no repercussions.
      - passwordoops 4y ago
        "Parent permissions" is how they get around that one for underage kids. It's either a notification through the parent portal or you login with the Google account on the kids tablet. Not sure of the mechanism on iOS, but I imagine it's similar. Once you give permission, it's free reign
        theshrike79 4y ago
        Nope, not even parent permission. It's used as one factor to prove that they are not "marketing to children". If you are considered as targeting your product to children, you get hit by a different set of laws than if it's an "adult" product. Source: I just spent a few hours listening to our lawyer give a presentation about this and why we need to be clear in marketing to adults only. Epic got hit with a $245M fine because they were seen as marketing to kids (along with other crap): https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/245-million-ftc-settlement-alleges-fortnite-owner-epic-games-used-digital-dark-patterns-charge https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/245-milli...
        passwordoops 4y ago
        There's marketing and then there's using. Obviously they do restrict certain apps like Tinder and PH, but it's only those that are exclusively 18-over (and Epic since the fine). Other apps like FB, TikTok, XBox and the rest that no child should go near (or anyone else for that matter) gives a prompt with something along the lines of "Ask your parents for permission". If I say OK, either from my account or by logging in on hers, the app is installed and can be used, even though her profile is under 13. They don't market to kids, but it's still available and still shows up in search. It would be great if these legal actions do show real restriction for all apps that are rated 13-over, but then no more tablets for kids. That's going to cost manufacturers and ad-driven apps a ton of money so I don't see it happening outside of the FCC going directly after Apple and Google. Source: I have a kid with an age-restricted tablet and just tested
    - passwordoops 4y ago
      There's a version for kids (0). Contact approvals go through the parents, there's a weekly report so you see who they spoke with, settings to prevent link sharing, curated GIFs (but that's as curated as YT Kids), etc. It's the only reason I signed into FB in the past decade. Obviously they can just set up their own fake FB account and lie about their age (which frankly I already told her to never sign up to anything with any real information) but the rest of their friends need to as well for it to be of any use. At this age, we're not there yet (0) https://messengerkids.com/ https://messengerkids.com/
      - patja 4y ago
        Thanks, this is new since my kids were under 13. I understand why parents let their children lie in order to avoid social exclusion. Kids can be very cliquey and being excluded hurts. I counseled my children that it is immoral to misrepresent yourself to someone in order to get them to give you something they otherwise would not (or are prohibited by law from doing so). I still remember my (now 24 year old) daughter gleefully signing up for Facebook on the morning of her 13th birthday.
  - BillyTheMage 4y ago
    I think if a 9 to 11 year old doesn't understand that there's a web browser already, and how it differs from the YouTube app, you've failed to teach your kids vital information, and are putting them at risk. You're leaving them defenseless under the guise of keeping them safe. You shouldn't have given them a tablet in the first place until they understand basic things like that. Ultimately, as you have learned, your child will circumvent your restrictions. You could go ahead and teach them how to be safe, or you could let them fall unprepared into monster-infested waters.
    - passwordoops 4y ago
      I get what you're saying, but "the internet" has evolved alot. Even knowing the dangers that are present, and how marketers try to short-circuit your brain etc etc (which we did do, I'm very clear with my kids that every law needs an explanation and they are provided with explanations) I think 13 is still too young to be left alone. Really I don't believe there is a minimum age, it's more who can resist addictive behaviors, so you tell me. I'm not going to presume your age but at least when I was growing up, the internet was more like a giant flea market: you go in, and yes there could be things that might be bad or useless or creepy or diddly, and you really learn where the quality stuff is by poking around. Internet then was very analogous to going out into the real world where you learn risk through experience and can walk away. With the walled gardens we have today?... it's more like dropping an open kilo of cocaine in front your kid, saying "you can snort it, smoke it, shove it under a toenail, put it on your wee-wee and it will make you feel good for a bit, but then really, really, really bad. So be careful" then turning on a fan pointed in their direction as you walk out of the room... Everyone working on user engagement at FB, TikTok, Insta and the rest, they know how to keep you on with dopamine hits. The second a kid logs in, the hyperoptimization forces the most addictive, useless crap in their suggestions or feed no matter what their search is, such as the box opening junk, or mash-ups that don't have anything but popular characters giggling for 2 minutes, and it gets weird in a hurry [0]. And no matter how hard you try, there are always more suggestions that take you into a corner of dopamine hits than quality information, and it's very difficult to tell the difference. It's unavoidable, and to say "just let them learn the dangers" just tells me you need to observe a kid while they navigate (it always ends in a sinkhole) or one who just put the tablet down. I'm not going to presume your life experience, but I know someone who's jonesing for a hit when I see one. I highly recommend you try setting up fake child accounts (minimum age, or if you want the full experience, set up a Family Link and say you're 8) on YouTube, TikTok, and the rest. There is no chance for a learning curve, there is no chance for evaluation. It's just immediate click-and-addict. These are the new cigarette companies and I'm treating them as such. In my case, we're learning as we go along. So she can use the laptop for writing (podcast scripts, stories and essays), research for school and any activities/hobby with one of us in the room to help with tips and, as we put it, help to make sure the algorithm doesn't short-circuit her brain), and introduce her to coding by making her own Roblox games (played locally). The tablet is for listening to podcasts and recording her own episodes/thoughts and there are good drawing apps. As to how we're going to approach things moving forward... Awareness is key but at least with drugs you can say no and not ingest. When she's in high school, just saying no is probably not a viable option, so we're still figuring out and trying to learn what works for others. [0] Video is 5 years old, and the weirder did is probably gone, but the gaming the algo is still valid https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LKp2gikIkD8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LKp2gikIkD8
dangwhy 4y ago
> It's been a month all diets fail after 6 months on average. ppl gain even more weight. you are going have the same results with this screen cap thing because you are using willpower to supress the urge which is still there and isnt going anywhere
- passwordoops 4y ago
  Right, just like I wasn't able to quit smoking after a 25-cigarette a day habit over 10 years ago and haven't looked back? Or how no one is ever able to keep weight off? Or get off heroin? Or change their lifestyle? Maybe ask: "What are you doing to try to ensure you'll keep your kids off screens and active?" Or "Do you have any experience trying to give up addictive behaviors, and how are you helping your child deal with it?" Snarky comments, especially those that involve assumptions ("you're using willpower") just make you come off as 1- a person who has never accomplished anything of note and isn't worth paying attention to, and 2- a naval gazer with neither the curiosity nor intelligence on how to approach discovery. Learn how to be inquisitive, then you can be judgemental
  - dangwhy 4y ago
    sorry my comment wasn't directed at you( i was using generic you) specifically. I was just comparing it to dieting using willpower as the means. Doesn't apply to 100% of people, you obviously had good success with it.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  I used to be 220lbs and winded going up steps. Now I'm 180lbs and weightlifting and running, going on 7 years. Not all diets fail. Willpower is the way.
- scythe 4y ago
  >all diets fail after six months on average; ppl regain even more weight This is not true and is also potentially harmful if people believe it. In reality, weight regain after "cutting" occurs over a period of years and tends to be around 50%; that is, less than the amount of weight lost in the first place. Several meta-analyses have been conducted, e.g.: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405457722002017 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240545772... It's also worth noting that adults under 60 tend to gain weight over time on average, so the actual effect of the intervention versus no intervention may be underestimated by simply treating the baseline as a constant. Losing ten pounds may seem small, but losing ten pounds instead of gaining ten pounds is more significant.

alxmng 4y ago

What age are you talking about?

passwordoops 4y ago
9-11 To be clear, we were strict up until the pandemic when we let things slide. Then all the friends were on messenger and if that's the only source of socializing, well ok. We didn't have YT on the tablet, but through ad clicking she discovered it would sometimes open in the browser, then she just figured out how the browser works. I'd say there was close to a year of virtually unfettered access, up to 2 hours a day, always simultaneously with Messenger Kids for chatting/calling friends. Cutting off was tough, but it happened over the holidays so we all took a full digital diet, and it gave the opportunity to gently introduce the concept of addiction
- patja 4y ago
  Curious about the use of the word messenger. Do you mean Facebook's Messenger? Isn't that only for age 13 and over?
  - adamauckland 4y ago
    > Isn't that only for age 13 and over If your child has their own tablet set to their age, sure, but I know plenty of people who just let the kids use Mom's iPad
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    All apps are 13+, it's a law thing. If companies go under that, they face intense scrutiny. Epic lost a case because of that already ($200M+ fine & years of supervision), Rovio is in hot water too. Same issue with WhatsApp for example, but it's pretty much a requirement to have any social life after first grade over here. Also there is no way for anyone except a parent to report an underage WA user, so there are no repercussions.
    - passwordoops 4y ago
      "Parent permissions" is how they get around that one for underage kids. It's either a notification through the parent portal or you login with the Google account on the kids tablet. Not sure of the mechanism on iOS, but I imagine it's similar. Once you give permission, it's free reign
      - theshrike79 4y ago
        Nope, not even parent permission. It's used as one factor to prove that they are not "marketing to children". If you are considered as targeting your product to children, you get hit by a different set of laws than if it's an "adult" product. Source: I just spent a few hours listening to our lawyer give a presentation about this and why we need to be clear in marketing to adults only. Epic got hit with a $245M fine because they were seen as marketing to kids (along with other crap): https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/245-million-ftc-settlement-alleges-fortnite-owner-epic-games-used-digital-dark-patterns-charge https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/245-milli...
        passwordoops 4y ago
        There's marketing and then there's using. Obviously they do restrict certain apps like Tinder and PH, but it's only those that are exclusively 18-over (and Epic since the fine). Other apps like FB, TikTok, XBox and the rest that no child should go near (or anyone else for that matter) gives a prompt with something along the lines of "Ask your parents for permission". If I say OK, either from my account or by logging in on hers, the app is installed and can be used, even though her profile is under 13. They don't market to kids, but it's still available and still shows up in search. It would be great if these legal actions do show real restriction for all apps that are rated 13-over, but then no more tablets for kids. That's going to cost manufacturers and ad-driven apps a ton of money so I don't see it happening outside of the FCC going directly after Apple and Google. Source: I have a kid with an age-restricted tablet and just tested
  - passwordoops 4y ago
    There's a version for kids (0). Contact approvals go through the parents, there's a weekly report so you see who they spoke with, settings to prevent link sharing, curated GIFs (but that's as curated as YT Kids), etc. It's the only reason I signed into FB in the past decade. Obviously they can just set up their own fake FB account and lie about their age (which frankly I already told her to never sign up to anything with any real information) but the rest of their friends need to as well for it to be of any use. At this age, we're not there yet (0) https://messengerkids.com/ https://messengerkids.com/
    - patja 4y ago
      Thanks, this is new since my kids were under 13. I understand why parents let their children lie in order to avoid social exclusion. Kids can be very cliquey and being excluded hurts. I counseled my children that it is immoral to misrepresent yourself to someone in order to get them to give you something they otherwise would not (or are prohibited by law from doing so). I still remember my (now 24 year old) daughter gleefully signing up for Facebook on the morning of her 13th birthday.
- BillyTheMage 4y ago
  I think if a 9 to 11 year old doesn't understand that there's a web browser already, and how it differs from the YouTube app, you've failed to teach your kids vital information, and are putting them at risk. You're leaving them defenseless under the guise of keeping them safe. You shouldn't have given them a tablet in the first place until they understand basic things like that. Ultimately, as you have learned, your child will circumvent your restrictions. You could go ahead and teach them how to be safe, or you could let them fall unprepared into monster-infested waters.
  - passwordoops 4y ago
    I get what you're saying, but "the internet" has evolved alot. Even knowing the dangers that are present, and how marketers try to short-circuit your brain etc etc (which we did do, I'm very clear with my kids that every law needs an explanation and they are provided with explanations) I think 13 is still too young to be left alone. Really I don't believe there is a minimum age, it's more who can resist addictive behaviors, so you tell me. I'm not going to presume your age but at least when I was growing up, the internet was more like a giant flea market: you go in, and yes there could be things that might be bad or useless or creepy or diddly, and you really learn where the quality stuff is by poking around. Internet then was very analogous to going out into the real world where you learn risk through experience and can walk away. With the walled gardens we have today?... it's more like dropping an open kilo of cocaine in front your kid, saying "you can snort it, smoke it, shove it under a toenail, put it on your wee-wee and it will make you feel good for a bit, but then really, really, really bad. So be careful" then turning on a fan pointed in their direction as you walk out of the room... Everyone working on user engagement at FB, TikTok, Insta and the rest, they know how to keep you on with dopamine hits. The second a kid logs in, the hyperoptimization forces the most addictive, useless crap in their suggestions or feed no matter what their search is, such as the box opening junk, or mash-ups that don't have anything but popular characters giggling for 2 minutes, and it gets weird in a hurry [0]. And no matter how hard you try, there are always more suggestions that take you into a corner of dopamine hits than quality information, and it's very difficult to tell the difference. It's unavoidable, and to say "just let them learn the dangers" just tells me you need to observe a kid while they navigate (it always ends in a sinkhole) or one who just put the tablet down. I'm not going to presume your life experience, but I know someone who's jonesing for a hit when I see one. I highly recommend you try setting up fake child accounts (minimum age, or if you want the full experience, set up a Family Link and say you're 8) on YouTube, TikTok, and the rest. There is no chance for a learning curve, there is no chance for evaluation. It's just immediate click-and-addict. These are the new cigarette companies and I'm treating them as such. In my case, we're learning as we go along. So she can use the laptop for writing (podcast scripts, stories and essays), research for school and any activities/hobby with one of us in the room to help with tips and, as we put it, help to make sure the algorithm doesn't short-circuit her brain), and introduce her to coding by making her own Roblox games (played locally). The tablet is for listening to podcasts and recording her own episodes/thoughts and there are good drawing apps. As to how we're going to approach things moving forward... Awareness is key but at least with drugs you can say no and not ingest. When she's in high school, just saying no is probably not a viable option, so we're still figuring out and trying to learn what works for others. [0] Video is 5 years old, and the weirder did is probably gone, but the gaming the algo is still valid https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LKp2gikIkD8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LKp2gikIkD8

dangwhy 4y ago

> It's been a month all diets fail after 6 months on average. ppl gain even more weight. you are going have the same results with this screen cap thing because you are using willpower to supress the urge which is still there and isnt going anywhere

passwordoops 4y ago
Right, just like I wasn't able to quit smoking after a 25-cigarette a day habit over 10 years ago and haven't looked back? Or how no one is ever able to keep weight off? Or get off heroin? Or change their lifestyle? Maybe ask: "What are you doing to try to ensure you'll keep your kids off screens and active?" Or "Do you have any experience trying to give up addictive behaviors, and how are you helping your child deal with it?" Snarky comments, especially those that involve assumptions ("you're using willpower") just make you come off as 1- a person who has never accomplished anything of note and isn't worth paying attention to, and 2- a naval gazer with neither the curiosity nor intelligence on how to approach discovery. Learn how to be inquisitive, then you can be judgemental
- dangwhy 4y ago
  sorry my comment wasn't directed at you( i was using generic you) specifically. I was just comparing it to dieting using willpower as the means. Doesn't apply to 100% of people, you obviously had good success with it.
vorpalhex 4y ago
I used to be 220lbs and winded going up steps. Now I'm 180lbs and weightlifting and running, going on 7 years. Not all diets fail. Willpower is the way.
scythe 4y ago
>all diets fail after six months on average; ppl regain even more weight This is not true and is also potentially harmful if people believe it. In reality, weight regain after "cutting" occurs over a period of years and tends to be around 50%; that is, less than the amount of weight lost in the first place. Several meta-analyses have been conducted, e.g.: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405457722002017 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240545772... It's also worth noting that adults under 60 tend to gain weight over time on average, so the actual effect of the intervention versus no intervention may be underestimated by simply treating the baseline as a constant. Losing ten pounds may seem small, but losing ten pounds instead of gaining ten pounds is more significant.