4 ms·

What leads you to believe that autoimmune disease is not real?

DoreenMichele 4y ago
I have a serious condition in which it's common for people to essentially conclude "The fire fighters are burning down buildings. Let's ban them!" So I am skeptical that the body simply randomly attacks itself. I suspect it's attacking something that's actually wrong, we just aren't seeing it...yet.
- wincy 4y ago
  Like how taking acid reducers seems like a great idea in the short term, when doing so leads to earlier onset of dementia because viruses and bacteria might slip through due to a less acidic digestive tract?
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    I'm not personally familiar with that example, but if that's accurate, yes.
    - muraiki 4y ago
      Looks like two studies contradict that: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/open-gently/201802/are-acid-reducers-increasing-dementia https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/open-gently/201802/a...
- jasonhansel 4y ago
  Surprisingly often, firefighters in fact are the ones burning down buildings: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3563183 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3563183
  - mansoon 4y ago
    I read this as a metaphor for Internal Family Systems Therapy lol.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    Nifty trivia, and not exactly shocking to me, but not really pertinent to the metaphor. The way I usually phrase it is "Wherever you see firefighters, you see burning buildings. So get rid of the fire department and problem solved." Nope, that's not how that works.
    - colordrops 4y ago
      It is pertinent though. Some autoimmune diseases are indeed due to an over active or malfunctioning immune system, just as a fire fighter failure can lead to burning down a building.
      - DoreenMichele 4y ago
        It's sort of a pet peeve of mine that "the immune system" is somewhat misleading nomenclature in that if I say digestive system or circulatory system, it's possible to name all the organs in that system. There's no similar list of organs of the immune system because it just means "how the body defends itself." Your skin is a first line of defense against invaders. The mucus in your respiratory tract and gut is a first line of defense. Your bone marrow is where white blood cells get produced. Etc. The antigens we produce are not the entirety of the immune system. It's like saying the alarm is all that's involved in securing a building and hand waving off the walls, doors, locks, etc. There are myriad ways to trick the white blood cells and the body also has ways of killing stuff other than the white blood cells. For my example, no, it's not pertinent. People with cystic fibrosis are prone to being too acid. Everyone in the CF community knows this but it's not deemed medically significant and goes largely untreated. The body will strip the bones of calcium to mitigate excess acidity in the blood and people with CF are prone to very early onset osteoporosis. But it's also known that high levels of calcium inside a cell are associated with cell death. Instead of drawing the conclusion that calcium is being used to buffer the cell against chemical derangement, some people with CF try to limit consumption of calcium because they they the calcium causes cell death rather than thinking the calcium signifies a desperate attempt to mitigate extreme acidity. It's 3am. This no doubt rambles.
- colordrops 4y ago
  Does anyone with any understanding of field believe that immune system issues just appear out of no where without an underlying trigger? The fire fighter analogy does not match my understanding. But even if we go with the fire fighter analogy, how is it any different from say, liver disease? Usually the trigger is something else, like drinking too much, and your liver is like a firefighter, trying to fix the issue, but it's still called liver disease. In fact it's more apt because the liver won't directly attack other tissues when it fails, unlike the immune system.
  - epgui 4y ago
    > Does anyone with any understanding of field believe that immune system issues just appear out of no where Yes, sort of. In a way, it’s just one manifestation of entropy. Systems breaking down is the default and the norm, against which life constantly fights.
- tgv 4y ago
  Nature is weird, so I don't consider it impossible for the body to attack itself. Obviously, that condition has to be rare or difficult to trigger; otherwise it would have evolved out, unless it would come with great benefits in other features. One explanation could be that our living conditions have changed sufficiently to trigger the erroneous behavior more frequently. There are various proposals for factors, ranging from mundane (e.g. dirt) to crazy, of course. Another one could be that the immune system attacks things that are no longer there, either because the system gets stuck, or because those things looked too much like our own tissues. Or indeed, we're overlooking something. The latter is a difficult one, and won't get much attention, because the risk of not finding anything publishable is too high.

I have a serious condition in which it's common for people to essentially conclude "The fire fighters are burning down buildings. Let's ban them!" So I am skeptical that the body simply randomly attacks itself. I suspect it's attacking something that's actually wrong, we just aren't seeing it...yet.

wincy 4y ago
Like how taking acid reducers seems like a great idea in the short term, when doing so leads to earlier onset of dementia because viruses and bacteria might slip through due to a less acidic digestive tract?
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  I'm not personally familiar with that example, but if that's accurate, yes.
  - muraiki 4y ago
    Looks like two studies contradict that: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/open-gently/201802/are-acid-reducers-increasing-dementia https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/open-gently/201802/a...
jasonhansel 4y ago
Surprisingly often, firefighters in fact are the ones burning down buildings: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3563183 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3563183
- mansoon 4y ago
  I read this as a metaphor for Internal Family Systems Therapy lol.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  Nifty trivia, and not exactly shocking to me, but not really pertinent to the metaphor. The way I usually phrase it is "Wherever you see firefighters, you see burning buildings. So get rid of the fire department and problem solved." Nope, that's not how that works.
  - colordrops 4y ago
    It is pertinent though. Some autoimmune diseases are indeed due to an over active or malfunctioning immune system, just as a fire fighter failure can lead to burning down a building.
    - DoreenMichele 4y ago
      It's sort of a pet peeve of mine that "the immune system" is somewhat misleading nomenclature in that if I say digestive system or circulatory system, it's possible to name all the organs in that system. There's no similar list of organs of the immune system because it just means "how the body defends itself." Your skin is a first line of defense against invaders. The mucus in your respiratory tract and gut is a first line of defense. Your bone marrow is where white blood cells get produced. Etc. The antigens we produce are not the entirety of the immune system. It's like saying the alarm is all that's involved in securing a building and hand waving off the walls, doors, locks, etc. There are myriad ways to trick the white blood cells and the body also has ways of killing stuff other than the white blood cells. For my example, no, it's not pertinent. People with cystic fibrosis are prone to being too acid. Everyone in the CF community knows this but it's not deemed medically significant and goes largely untreated. The body will strip the bones of calcium to mitigate excess acidity in the blood and people with CF are prone to very early onset osteoporosis. But it's also known that high levels of calcium inside a cell are associated with cell death. Instead of drawing the conclusion that calcium is being used to buffer the cell against chemical derangement, some people with CF try to limit consumption of calcium because they they the calcium causes cell death rather than thinking the calcium signifies a desperate attempt to mitigate extreme acidity. It's 3am. This no doubt rambles.
colordrops 4y ago
Does anyone with any understanding of field believe that immune system issues just appear out of no where without an underlying trigger? The fire fighter analogy does not match my understanding. But even if we go with the fire fighter analogy, how is it any different from say, liver disease? Usually the trigger is something else, like drinking too much, and your liver is like a firefighter, trying to fix the issue, but it's still called liver disease. In fact it's more apt because the liver won't directly attack other tissues when it fails, unlike the immune system.
- epgui 4y ago
  > Does anyone with any understanding of field believe that immune system issues just appear out of no where Yes, sort of. In a way, it’s just one manifestation of entropy. Systems breaking down is the default and the norm, against which life constantly fights.
tgv 4y ago
Nature is weird, so I don't consider it impossible for the body to attack itself. Obviously, that condition has to be rare or difficult to trigger; otherwise it would have evolved out, unless it would come with great benefits in other features. One explanation could be that our living conditions have changed sufficiently to trigger the erroneous behavior more frequently. There are various proposals for factors, ranging from mundane (e.g. dirt) to crazy, of course. Another one could be that the immune system attacks things that are no longer there, either because the system gets stuck, or because those things looked too much like our own tissues. Or indeed, we're overlooking something. The latter is a difficult one, and won't get much attention, because the risk of not finding anything publishable is too high.