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Agree, it’s very common pattern, one that in part is caused by power grabs, but also by people suddenly realizing they now the ones in control and if they fail,

Agree, it’s very common pattern, one that in part is caused by power grabs, but also by people suddenly realizing they now the ones in control and if they fail, they’re next on the chopping blocks. Would be curious about the evolution on ACLU on free speech you referenced. Does this article cover your understanding, or is it something else? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html

int_19h 4y ago
It's one of the many articles covering it; Wikipedia has a few more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union#Accusations_of_lost_impartiality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union... But I think it's best to go directly to the source, which would be the 2018 ACLU memo that triggered the attention and judge for yourself: https://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/20180621ACLU.pdf https://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/20180621AC... To be fair to ACLU, they did backtrack somewhat on all this. Speaking as a member who joined years before this became somehow contentious for the organization, I hope that it'll get back on track, but I'm pessimistic about it - I think the zeitgeist is too contrary, and historically, ACLU did waver at such times (e.g. on defending rights of communists in 1930-50s).
- O__________O 4y ago
  Thanks, generally agree with your assessment. Might be wrong, but it’s likely that only real solution is for the organization to introduce controls that attempt to put distance between the donors and operations of organization. Issue is donors, especially large ones, are very aware that organizations crave additional funds and often willing to bend the operations and positioning of an organization to gain them. Beyond that, free speech is complex topic, so one for which I am sure I lack an even partial understanding of. I can easily see how hate speech is outsides of free speech in part because it feels without fail it’s only matter of time before someone takes the words to heart and lashes out in violence. Given it appears only four lawyers at ACLU actually engage in free speech litigation according to prior article I linked to, beyond ACLU brand recognition and legacy funding, likely be worth funding and alternative organization instead of waiting for ACLU to default on its founding principals; possible retired ACLU free speech attorneys would be willing to mentor and advise these new attorneys. Lastly, ACLU might easily address issue by making their potential case review assessments public and requiring those assessments include disclosure of any conflicting values and beliefs related to the case, especially case which they choose not to represent.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    I don't think it's an issue with big donors specifically, or at least not just them. Thing is, a lot of people join ACLU for other causes - abortion is a popular one, for example. And back in 2016, many lefties joined during the Trump scare, on the general basis that something vaguely like ACLU was needed to push back all across the board. Naturally, the people who would do something like that tend to be those who feel strongly about politics and have strong opinions on various issues. But then those new members bring the entirety of their public politics to the internal politics of the organization, not just that one issue they joined over. A kind of Eternal September, if you will. I don't think there is a solution to this, though. If ACLU doesn't get a steady supply of new members, it will wither and die. If it constrains itself to be small enough that the available supply of new members who fully support the existing platform is sufficient to sustain it (even as that platform becomes further away from the mainstream), it will be too small and lacking power for many important fights.
- deleted 4y ago
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int_19h 4y ago

It's one of the many articles covering it; Wikipedia has a few more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union#Accusations_of_lost_impartiality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union... But I think it's best to go directly to the source, which would be the 2018 ACLU memo that triggered the attention and judge for yourself: https://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/20180621ACLU.pdf https://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/20180621AC... To be fair to ACLU, they did backtrack somewhat on all this. Speaking as a member who joined years before this became somehow contentious for the organization, I hope that it'll get back on track, but I'm pessimistic about it - I think the zeitgeist is too contrary, and historically, ACLU did waver at such times (e.g. on defending rights of communists in 1930-50s).

O__________O 4y ago
Thanks, generally agree with your assessment. Might be wrong, but it’s likely that only real solution is for the organization to introduce controls that attempt to put distance between the donors and operations of organization. Issue is donors, especially large ones, are very aware that organizations crave additional funds and often willing to bend the operations and positioning of an organization to gain them. Beyond that, free speech is complex topic, so one for which I am sure I lack an even partial understanding of. I can easily see how hate speech is outsides of free speech in part because it feels without fail it’s only matter of time before someone takes the words to heart and lashes out in violence. Given it appears only four lawyers at ACLU actually engage in free speech litigation according to prior article I linked to, beyond ACLU brand recognition and legacy funding, likely be worth funding and alternative organization instead of waiting for ACLU to default on its founding principals; possible retired ACLU free speech attorneys would be willing to mentor and advise these new attorneys. Lastly, ACLU might easily address issue by making their potential case review assessments public and requiring those assessments include disclosure of any conflicting values and beliefs related to the case, especially case which they choose not to represent.
- int_19h 4y ago
  I don't think it's an issue with big donors specifically, or at least not just them. Thing is, a lot of people join ACLU for other causes - abortion is a popular one, for example. And back in 2016, many lefties joined during the Trump scare, on the general basis that something vaguely like ACLU was needed to push back all across the board. Naturally, the people who would do something like that tend to be those who feel strongly about politics and have strong opinions on various issues. But then those new members bring the entirety of their public politics to the internal politics of the organization, not just that one issue they joined over. A kind of Eternal September, if you will. I don't think there is a solution to this, though. If ACLU doesn't get a steady supply of new members, it will wither and die. If it constrains itself to be small enough that the available supply of new members who fully support the existing platform is sufficient to sustain it (even as that platform becomes further away from the mainstream), it will be too small and lacking power for many important fights.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]