8 ms·

+ Is there a post 2010 popular film where a violent boyfriend husband hits his wife? Wherein that woman antagonised the man, making the audience 'feel' her 'cul

by jasmer 4y ago

+ Is there a post 2010 popular film where a violent boyfriend husband hits his wife? Wherein that woman antagonised the man, making the audience 'feel' her 'culpability' in some ways, wherein both characters are presented as mostly bad, but also had elements of humanity? Wherein bad characters call each other (trigger warning / vulgar language) 'jew k*ke' and other terrible slurs? Maybe it was just an artifact of that era, or maybe I'm watching too much Netflix because even 'noir' is not 'noir'. + 'Barnie kids' villains, not Barnie's villains. Villains are barely disagreeable. Aside from maybe 'Hans Landa' here hasn't been a dark villain in a very long time. They are at best, sad charicatures of 'bad people'. 'Grand Moff Tarkin' from Star Wars is scarier than most bad guys, merely with his presence.

watwut 4y ago
> Wherein that woman antagonised the man, making the audience 'feel' her 'culpability' in some ways, wherein both characters are presented as mostly bad, but also had elements of humanity? If you want the movie to make audience feel like the woman is culpable for being beaten, then you are asking for waaay more then just "depiction of violence against women". You are asking for moral lesson that it is ok to hit women (or people) if they are annoying.
- seventhtiger 4y ago
  No, they're asking for it to be morally complex and uncomfortable. The moral lesson is being given in your comment.
  - jasmer 4y ago
    Yes, this is my point, and the commenter is displaying exactly the moral tendency I'm wary of in cinema. Ironically, if you just watch the darn film, you see it for what it is. It's also not a morality tale, it's mostly just entertainment. They're all faulty people, and 'it's complicated'. You can hate them and sympathise with them at the same time. I suggest almost nobody has a problem with 'Casino' the way it is - I do however believe that it wouldn't get made today, for exactly the 'moral concerns' that the commenter indicated. Not only are studios risk averse, there's a culture of people who would just feel such a depiction immoral and 'problematic' as though everything we see is a morality tale, or, that these films directly influence behaviour a bit like Joe Rogan yapping on about vaccines when he probably should not be ... except that this is different. And possibly generation of writers who don't come across enough 'ugly people' in real life to provide fodder as writing material. We're just all becoming a bit too genteel without accents, colour, hints of ethnic orientation. Oh - and teeth. Look at the teeth. Everyone has perfect teeth on film. It's hilarious. It happened over a few years, but now it's unthinkable that someone doesn't have a perfect smile, even the bad guys. Compare it to British TV where they don't select for that and it becomes obvious. The baddies had braces and definitely use 'Crest Strips' and god forbid they don't smoke or drink coffee!
    - watwut 4y ago
      Except that you specifically demand that audience ends up with specific moral conclusion in specific situation/scene. And that is the thing, I do watch movies and there is plenty of bad or immoral characters being depicted. It is just not true, at least for shows I watch on netfix, that they would be full of likable moral characters. But they are not enough, because I guess those movies do not have specific lesson you want there to be.
      - jasmer 4y ago
        I'm definitely not suggesting their should be a moral lesson and I indicated quite the opposite. Also, there are plenty of characters with moral ambiguity on Netflix, they're just not that good. 'Perfect Teeth, Perfect Smile' most often don't make good bad guys, unless those are the specific characteristics. It's been a while since 'Swearengen' from Deadwood or 'Chicurg' from No Country for Old Men. Game of Thrones had some baddies. But relatively spekaing I think it's thin pickings. Maybe it's just Netflix fomatting pushing us towards bland content ...
  - watwut 4y ago
    Really not true. "Uncomfortable" is there, you can show uncomfortable and morally complex in many various ways. It does not require "making the audience 'feel' her 'culpability' in some ways:. What op asked for is literally specific moral judgement and lesson. Just not the one you (presumably) agree with.
    - jasmer 4y ago
      I definitely did not imply there should be a moral imperative. Moroever, the 'making the audience contemplate her culpability' in having attacked a man before she was hit, is definitely the 'verbotten' form of depiction, the reason being too many people would feel that would somehow justify domestic violence. This is the essence of 'what cannot be put on screen' - ideas that are counter narrative or don't fit nicely. A man hitting a woman is tricky, but a man hitting a woman who is harrassing him is much worse because it might seem to imply the 'guy had a good reason to hit her', even if that 'implication' isn't necessarily obvious, lot of people would freak out anyhow. In 'Gone Girl' the film, you can see the woman was the villain, making 'fake claims' of being raped etc. - this was met with severe blowback, because some people didn't want to see the depiction (and therefore possible justification of the narrative) of woman lying abour rape. The 'social justice imperative' is to 'believe women' and so from their view, it's not something they want on the big screen. The blow back is strong enough that it pushes producers and writers away from those kinds of things. Nobody in the industry wants to be see as 'that guy' aka that 'guy' who may secrety be a 'trump guy' etc.. Unlesss they have a lot of power and people give them the benefit of the doubt, aka Scorsese.
pjc50 4y ago
You won't see anyone smoking in films these days either. Which is also bad for noir. See also https://bloodknife.com/everyone-beautiful-no-one-horny/ https://bloodknife.com/everyone-beautiful-no-one-horny/ ; it's a conundrum of modern action movies that they're allowed unlimited violence but must be strictly unshocking in all other ways. And then there's the total dominance of superhero CGI. To a great extent this stuff just moved to TV. Would Game of Thrones meet your criteria for domestic violence?
- jasmer 4y ago
  Thanks for that example because 'smoking' is exactly an example of what I mean. 'Game of Thrones' initally was pretty good. Towards the end however, it veered a bit to safety as they had to 'make it up' given the story was not written. We should note that it's fundamentally a European production, not Hollywood, and, that it started even before 2011, so a while ago, before a lot of the sanitization has sunk in.
smackeyacky 4y ago
Wolf of Wall Street (2013) Plenty of good villains in 'Andor' and that's a Disney thing.
- beebmam 4y ago
  Yeah but that show isn't for kids. Not that kids can't watch it, it's just not very interesting to them in my experience. Popular media for kids now typically is gaming media and/or fanfiction. Undertale, FNAF, Harry Potter, and God knows what else (I try my best to avoid hearing about it). True villains feature quite prominently in all of this.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Yeah but that show isn’t for kids. Neither was Casino, the upthread film that “couldn’t be made now”. The question was a “popular film”, not a “kids film”.
- jasmer 4y ago
  Wolf of Wall Street is Scorsese, aka 'Casino'. One of the few remaining greats. I agree Andor has better writing. I could be crazy, but I feel that there is a 'sanitzation' happening, and it could be a multi-faceted thing. Of course there is 'violence' but it's generally very clean and surreal, even when they are trying really hard to make it dirty, it just feels fake. It might even just be bland writing by people with limited life experience? But I feel that we are all 'careful about what we say' in a way we were not before. On Smartless and Conan all the actors just tell each other how much they 'love one aother', it's purid, a bit revolting. ('aka' I hope you consider me for you next project and don't think I'm one of the 'bad people'). Where are the deviants? Wierdos? Trolls? Odd looking people? Just Google 'Character Actor' - and you get a long list of old guys! Scorsese packs his films with tons of very regular looking people, and the production design embellishes but it feels very real, just part of why I think his villains are more 'scary'. The Joe Pesci "You Think I'm Funny?" from Goodfellas is one of the most unsettling bits in cinema - and consider how simple the scene is and even the relative power dynaic of the characters. He's not the head of the mob, or even a mass murderer like 'Dahmer'. And probaably 'globalism' aka 'global audiences' is a primary factor among others. Anyhow - Kermit himself is a classic case. Have a look at this classic Kermit and Cookie Monster, the later throws a wrench into Kermits thing and he gets pissed. For some reason that level of emotional reality just does not exist on Barney or Paw Patrol. Watching Paw Patrol feels dystopian, I watch my newphews watching that and it feels more like a 'visual opioid' than anything else. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=kermit+being+violent&client=firefox-b-d&biw=1077&bih=580&tbm=vid&sxsrf=AJOqlzWNcW5UfqiwqhUeMIitHv2lzA8ZtQ%3A1675404150796&ei=dqPcY-eXMLjl5NoPvZqqiAo&ved=0ahUKEwjnqo3q1vj8AhW4MlkFHT2NCqEQ4dUDCAw&uact=5&oq=kermit+being+violent&gs_lcp=Cg1nd3Mtd2l6LXZpZGVvEAMyBQghEKABOgcIIxCwAhAnOgUIABCRAjoFCAAQgAQ6CggAEIAEEBQQhwI6BwghEKABEAo6CAghEBYQHhAdUOACWNhNYPxQaAlwAHgAgAF4iAGHEJIBBDE5LjSYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-video#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:9e0eab1a,vid:y-Z1BFLteSw https://www.google.com/search?q=kermit+being+violent&client=...
adzm 4y ago
The other mother in Coraline is such a great villain.

by jasmer 4y ago

watwut 4y ago

> Wherein that woman antagonised the man, making the audience 'feel' her 'culpability' in some ways, wherein both characters are presented as mostly bad, but also had elements of humanity? If you want the movie to make audience feel like the woman is culpable for being beaten, then you are asking for waaay more then just "depiction of violence against women". You are asking for moral lesson that it is ok to hit women (or people) if they are annoying.

seventhtiger 4y ago
No, they're asking for it to be morally complex and uncomfortable. The moral lesson is being given in your comment.
- jasmer 4y ago
  Yes, this is my point, and the commenter is displaying exactly the moral tendency I'm wary of in cinema. Ironically, if you just watch the darn film, you see it for what it is. It's also not a morality tale, it's mostly just entertainment. They're all faulty people, and 'it's complicated'. You can hate them and sympathise with them at the same time. I suggest almost nobody has a problem with 'Casino' the way it is - I do however believe that it wouldn't get made today, for exactly the 'moral concerns' that the commenter indicated. Not only are studios risk averse, there's a culture of people who would just feel such a depiction immoral and 'problematic' as though everything we see is a morality tale, or, that these films directly influence behaviour a bit like Joe Rogan yapping on about vaccines when he probably should not be ... except that this is different. And possibly generation of writers who don't come across enough 'ugly people' in real life to provide fodder as writing material. We're just all becoming a bit too genteel without accents, colour, hints of ethnic orientation. Oh - and teeth. Look at the teeth. Everyone has perfect teeth on film. It's hilarious. It happened over a few years, but now it's unthinkable that someone doesn't have a perfect smile, even the bad guys. Compare it to British TV where they don't select for that and it becomes obvious. The baddies had braces and definitely use 'Crest Strips' and god forbid they don't smoke or drink coffee!
  - watwut 4y ago
    Except that you specifically demand that audience ends up with specific moral conclusion in specific situation/scene. And that is the thing, I do watch movies and there is plenty of bad or immoral characters being depicted. It is just not true, at least for shows I watch on netfix, that they would be full of likable moral characters. But they are not enough, because I guess those movies do not have specific lesson you want there to be.
    - jasmer 4y ago
      I'm definitely not suggesting their should be a moral lesson and I indicated quite the opposite. Also, there are plenty of characters with moral ambiguity on Netflix, they're just not that good. 'Perfect Teeth, Perfect Smile' most often don't make good bad guys, unless those are the specific characteristics. It's been a while since 'Swearengen' from Deadwood or 'Chicurg' from No Country for Old Men. Game of Thrones had some baddies. But relatively spekaing I think it's thin pickings. Maybe it's just Netflix fomatting pushing us towards bland content ...
- watwut 4y ago
  Really not true. "Uncomfortable" is there, you can show uncomfortable and morally complex in many various ways. It does not require "making the audience 'feel' her 'culpability' in some ways:. What op asked for is literally specific moral judgement and lesson. Just not the one you (presumably) agree with.
  - jasmer 4y ago
    I definitely did not imply there should be a moral imperative. Moroever, the 'making the audience contemplate her culpability' in having attacked a man before she was hit, is definitely the 'verbotten' form of depiction, the reason being too many people would feel that would somehow justify domestic violence. This is the essence of 'what cannot be put on screen' - ideas that are counter narrative or don't fit nicely. A man hitting a woman is tricky, but a man hitting a woman who is harrassing him is much worse because it might seem to imply the 'guy had a good reason to hit her', even if that 'implication' isn't necessarily obvious, lot of people would freak out anyhow. In 'Gone Girl' the film, you can see the woman was the villain, making 'fake claims' of being raped etc. - this was met with severe blowback, because some people didn't want to see the depiction (and therefore possible justification of the narrative) of woman lying abour rape. The 'social justice imperative' is to 'believe women' and so from their view, it's not something they want on the big screen. The blow back is strong enough that it pushes producers and writers away from those kinds of things. Nobody in the industry wants to be see as 'that guy' aka that 'guy' who may secrety be a 'trump guy' etc.. Unlesss they have a lot of power and people give them the benefit of the doubt, aka Scorsese.

pjc50 4y ago

You won't see anyone smoking in films these days either. Which is also bad for noir. See also https://bloodknife.com/everyone-beautiful-no-one-horny/ https://bloodknife.com/everyone-beautiful-no-one-horny/ ; it's a conundrum of modern action movies that they're allowed unlimited violence but must be strictly unshocking in all other ways. And then there's the total dominance of superhero CGI. To a great extent this stuff just moved to TV. Would Game of Thrones meet your criteria for domestic violence?

jasmer 4y ago
Thanks for that example because 'smoking' is exactly an example of what I mean. 'Game of Thrones' initally was pretty good. Towards the end however, it veered a bit to safety as they had to 'make it up' given the story was not written. We should note that it's fundamentally a European production, not Hollywood, and, that it started even before 2011, so a while ago, before a lot of the sanitization has sunk in.

smackeyacky 4y ago

Wolf of Wall Street (2013) Plenty of good villains in 'Andor' and that's a Disney thing.

beebmam 4y ago
Yeah but that show isn't for kids. Not that kids can't watch it, it's just not very interesting to them in my experience. Popular media for kids now typically is gaming media and/or fanfiction. Undertale, FNAF, Harry Potter, and God knows what else (I try my best to avoid hearing about it). True villains feature quite prominently in all of this.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Yeah but that show isn’t for kids. Neither was Casino, the upthread film that “couldn’t be made now”. The question was a “popular film”, not a “kids film”.
jasmer 4y ago
Wolf of Wall Street is Scorsese, aka 'Casino'. One of the few remaining greats. I agree Andor has better writing. I could be crazy, but I feel that there is a 'sanitzation' happening, and it could be a multi-faceted thing. Of course there is 'violence' but it's generally very clean and surreal, even when they are trying really hard to make it dirty, it just feels fake. It might even just be bland writing by people with limited life experience? But I feel that we are all 'careful about what we say' in a way we were not before. On Smartless and Conan all the actors just tell each other how much they 'love one aother', it's purid, a bit revolting. ('aka' I hope you consider me for you next project and don't think I'm one of the 'bad people'). Where are the deviants? Wierdos? Trolls? Odd looking people? Just Google 'Character Actor' - and you get a long list of old guys! Scorsese packs his films with tons of very regular looking people, and the production design embellishes but it feels very real, just part of why I think his villains are more 'scary'. The Joe Pesci "You Think I'm Funny?" from Goodfellas is one of the most unsettling bits in cinema - and consider how simple the scene is and even the relative power dynaic of the characters. He's not the head of the mob, or even a mass murderer like 'Dahmer'. And probaably 'globalism' aka 'global audiences' is a primary factor among others. Anyhow - Kermit himself is a classic case. Have a look at this classic Kermit and Cookie Monster, the later throws a wrench into Kermits thing and he gets pissed. For some reason that level of emotional reality just does not exist on Barney or Paw Patrol. Watching Paw Patrol feels dystopian, I watch my newphews watching that and it feels more like a 'visual opioid' than anything else. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=kermit+being+violent&client=firefox-b-d&biw=1077&bih=580&tbm=vid&sxsrf=AJOqlzWNcW5UfqiwqhUeMIitHv2lzA8ZtQ%3A1675404150796&ei=dqPcY-eXMLjl5NoPvZqqiAo&ved=0ahUKEwjnqo3q1vj8AhW4MlkFHT2NCqEQ4dUDCAw&uact=5&oq=kermit+being+violent&gs_lcp=Cg1nd3Mtd2l6LXZpZGVvEAMyBQghEKABOgcIIxCwAhAnOgUIABCRAjoFCAAQgAQ6CggAEIAEEBQQhwI6BwghEKABEAo6CAghEBYQHhAdUOACWNhNYPxQaAlwAHgAgAF4iAGHEJIBBDE5LjSYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-video#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:9e0eab1a,vid:y-Z1BFLteSw https://www.google.com/search?q=kermit+being+violent&client=...

adzm 4y ago

The other mother in Coraline is such a great villain.