4 ms·

The Muppet's Christmas Carol is a such a unique moment of time where you have legendary actor Michael Caine playing a role accurate to the original Charles Dick

by sharms 4y ago

The Muppet's Christmas Carol is a such a unique moment of time where you have legendary actor Michael Caine playing a role accurate to the original Charles Dickens story, combined with Gonzo as narrator and Rizzo the rat. I feel like since then we have somewhat lost the capability to make these sorts of movies.

thaumasiotes 4y ago
The Muppet Christmas Carol is a great film. One thing I find very striking about it is that it felt free to swing between being a Muppets movie and being a faithful rendition of the story according to whatever was better for the movie. There are two Marleys in the Muppet Christmas Carol, because the best Muppet personality match to Jacob Marley is a set of two Muppet characters. That's great. But then on the other end, when Dickens has produced a great piece of writing that doesn't translate well to film... Rizzo the Rat can whip out his copy of the book and just read that passage to the audience. Even better! Someone had a vision for this movie and did an amazing job. > I feel like since then we have somewhat lost the capability to make these sorts of movies. Copyright is a big problem here. If you want to find the best possible version of a story, you need to let different people experiment with different ways of telling it.
- a_e_k 4y ago
  > There are two Marleys in the Muppet Christmas Carol, because the best Muppet personality match to Jacob Marley is a set of two Muppet characters. It also let them have the parental bonus of a character named Robert Marley. > Rizzo the Rat can whip out his copy of the book and just read that passage to the audience. The neat thing about that is that the book was basically meant as a read-aloud. Dicken's had a condensed version which he'd get up on stage and read to audiences in a dramatic way. (He'd failed as a professional actor, but definitely found another path to success!) So I love that Gonzo reciting narration passages directly from the book is even more true to authorial intent in some ways.
earthboundkid 4y ago
Tbf, Paul Williams was coked out of his mind when he wrote the music for that, to the point that he later introduced himself to Caine as though they hadn’t done the movie already. So hard to recreate the conditions of creation.
oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
> I’m going to play this movie like I’m working with the Royal Shakespeare Company. I will never wink, I will never do anything Muppety. I am going to play Scrooge as if it is an utterly dramatic role and there are no puppets around me. He pretty much nailed it.
- AndrewOMartin 4y ago
  Nailed it he did, but isn't this how all people treated the muppets? My memories of the original shows were of celebrities working with the muppets just like their peers. It's one of the greatest examples of buy-in to a shared pretend, alongside the likes of Father Christmas/Santa and arguably outshining kayfabe.
  - oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
    I was actually thinking the very same thing since I posted that! I don't remember the original series that well, but I do have a vague recollection of everyone 'buying into it' incredibly well, like you say. I guess it's a testament to the Muppeteers, too! I need to rewatch the recent - excellent - movies and do a comparison.
  - Tsiklon 4y ago
    Tim Curry could be argued to have acted precisely as a Muppet in Muppet Treasure Island - That said in certain circumstances that may be an accurate description of his acting style to begin with.
gonehome 4y ago
I was upset when Disney cut the “when love is gone” song from it in the dvd release because it was “too sad for children” or some other dumb reason. This lead it to being mostly missing from it on streaming services. The cut part was then also lost, but very recently they found it again and added it back in. Still, at least on apple streaming it’s missing and we have to switch to YouTube to see it at the right point (my family watches it every year).
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  I have an older DVD copy that retains it, but only in the full screen edition. The widescreen edition on the same disc cut it.
  - gonehome 4y ago
    The scene doesn’t really make sense without it.
- mandevil 4y ago
  "When Love is Gone" was not in the version of the movie shown in theaters, it was ONLY on home releases (one or two of them only had it available as special features, the original VHS release had it in the right place in the movie). It was never lost at all, they always knew where the footage was. Brian Henson says that Jeffrey Katzenberg (Chairman of Walt Disney Studios) strongly suggested but did not order him to cut the song- saying that it was too much adult emotion that children did not understand, and caused children to start to fidget and get bored. This came up in my family because I had only seen the movie in theaters and my wife had seen the VHS copy many times, so when we watched it on our blu-ray back in December I blithely selected "widescreen theatrical release" and got what I remembered and she was wondering where that song went, if we'd selected 'Full-screen VHS release' we would have gotten this song that I didn't remember at all.
  - gonehome 4y ago
    This is the article I had read: https://www.vulture.com/2022/12/muppet-christmas-carol-song-when-love-is-gone-song-returning.html https://www.vulture.com/2022/12/muppet-christmas-carol-song-... In it they say Disney cut it - I had read elsewhere it wasn’t an order but they definitely seemed to have pushed it despite what he wanted. That article says they then lost it after. >” While the scene was cut from the theatrical release, Henson very much wanted it to be included. Speaking to Entertainment Weekly in November, Henson explained that Jeffrey Katzenberg (yes, the Quibi one, who was then in charge of Disney) was the one who had the scene cut. “He’s like, ‘It’s just a little too adult-emotional for little kids to stay connected,’” Henson recalled Katzenberg saying, adding that the film “certainly plays well without the song, but I obviously preferred having the song in. I think it’s good for kids to be pulled into deeply emotional moments, even if they feel slightly awkward about it when they’re in a movie theater.” According to Henson, Disney lost the original footage soon after, but efforts have been made to recover it. “For years and years, I’d call them every six months and see how they were doing. And they actually even put together a team and a little budget to try to find it, and they still couldn’t,” he told EW. “It’s very frustrating.”” Also at the end of the movie the last song is a throw back “when love is found” which loses some meaning with the other song cut.

by sharms 4y ago

thaumasiotes 4y ago

The Muppet Christmas Carol is a great film. One thing I find very striking about it is that it felt free to swing between being a Muppets movie and being a faithful rendition of the story according to whatever was better for the movie. There are two Marleys in the Muppet Christmas Carol, because the best Muppet personality match to Jacob Marley is a set of two Muppet characters. That's great. But then on the other end, when Dickens has produced a great piece of writing that doesn't translate well to film... Rizzo the Rat can whip out his copy of the book and just read that passage to the audience. Even better! Someone had a vision for this movie and did an amazing job. > I feel like since then we have somewhat lost the capability to make these sorts of movies. Copyright is a big problem here. If you want to find the best possible version of a story, you need to let different people experiment with different ways of telling it.

a_e_k 4y ago
> There are two Marleys in the Muppet Christmas Carol, because the best Muppet personality match to Jacob Marley is a set of two Muppet characters. It also let them have the parental bonus of a character named Robert Marley. > Rizzo the Rat can whip out his copy of the book and just read that passage to the audience. The neat thing about that is that the book was basically meant as a read-aloud. Dicken's had a condensed version which he'd get up on stage and read to audiences in a dramatic way. (He'd failed as a professional actor, but definitely found another path to success!) So I love that Gonzo reciting narration passages directly from the book is even more true to authorial intent in some ways.

earthboundkid 4y ago

Tbf, Paul Williams was coked out of his mind when he wrote the music for that, to the point that he later introduced himself to Caine as though they hadn’t done the movie already. So hard to recreate the conditions of creation.

oneeyedpigeon 4y ago

> I’m going to play this movie like I’m working with the Royal Shakespeare Company. I will never wink, I will never do anything Muppety. I am going to play Scrooge as if it is an utterly dramatic role and there are no puppets around me. He pretty much nailed it.

AndrewOMartin 4y ago
Nailed it he did, but isn't this how all people treated the muppets? My memories of the original shows were of celebrities working with the muppets just like their peers. It's one of the greatest examples of buy-in to a shared pretend, alongside the likes of Father Christmas/Santa and arguably outshining kayfabe.
- oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
  I was actually thinking the very same thing since I posted that! I don't remember the original series that well, but I do have a vague recollection of everyone 'buying into it' incredibly well, like you say. I guess it's a testament to the Muppeteers, too! I need to rewatch the recent - excellent - movies and do a comparison.
- Tsiklon 4y ago
  Tim Curry could be argued to have acted precisely as a Muppet in Muppet Treasure Island - That said in certain circumstances that may be an accurate description of his acting style to begin with.

gonehome 4y ago

I was upset when Disney cut the “when love is gone” song from it in the dvd release because it was “too sad for children” or some other dumb reason. This lead it to being mostly missing from it on streaming services. The cut part was then also lost, but very recently they found it again and added it back in. Still, at least on apple streaming it’s missing and we have to switch to YouTube to see it at the right point (my family watches it every year).

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
I have an older DVD copy that retains it, but only in the full screen edition. The widescreen edition on the same disc cut it.
- gonehome 4y ago
  The scene doesn’t really make sense without it.
mandevil 4y ago
"When Love is Gone" was not in the version of the movie shown in theaters, it was ONLY on home releases (one or two of them only had it available as special features, the original VHS release had it in the right place in the movie). It was never lost at all, they always knew where the footage was. Brian Henson says that Jeffrey Katzenberg (Chairman of Walt Disney Studios) strongly suggested but did not order him to cut the song- saying that it was too much adult emotion that children did not understand, and caused children to start to fidget and get bored. This came up in my family because I had only seen the movie in theaters and my wife had seen the VHS copy many times, so when we watched it on our blu-ray back in December I blithely selected "widescreen theatrical release" and got what I remembered and she was wondering where that song went, if we'd selected 'Full-screen VHS release' we would have gotten this song that I didn't remember at all.
- gonehome 4y ago
  This is the article I had read: https://www.vulture.com/2022/12/muppet-christmas-carol-song-when-love-is-gone-song-returning.html https://www.vulture.com/2022/12/muppet-christmas-carol-song-... In it they say Disney cut it - I had read elsewhere it wasn’t an order but they definitely seemed to have pushed it despite what he wanted. That article says they then lost it after. >” While the scene was cut from the theatrical release, Henson very much wanted it to be included. Speaking to Entertainment Weekly in November, Henson explained that Jeffrey Katzenberg (yes, the Quibi one, who was then in charge of Disney) was the one who had the scene cut. “He’s like, ‘It’s just a little too adult-emotional for little kids to stay connected,’” Henson recalled Katzenberg saying, adding that the film “certainly plays well without the song, but I obviously preferred having the song in. I think it’s good for kids to be pulled into deeply emotional moments, even if they feel slightly awkward about it when they’re in a movie theater.” According to Henson, Disney lost the original footage soon after, but efforts have been made to recover it. “For years and years, I’d call them every six months and see how they were doing. And they actually even put together a team and a little budget to try to find it, and they still couldn’t,” he told EW. “It’s very frustrating.”” Also at the end of the movie the last song is a throw back “when love is found” which loses some meaning with the other song cut.