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> Scientists have used 3D lasers and CT scans to measure the precise geometry of a Stradivarius, but so far no one has been able to replicate its sound. This i

by sxp 4y ago

> Scientists have used 3D lasers and CT scans to measure the precise geometry of a Stradivarius, but so far no one has been able to replicate its sound. This is demonstratable false. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius#Comparisons_in_sound_quality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius#Comparisons_in_so... > The Stradivarius instruments are famous for the quality of sound they produce. However, the many blind experiments from 1817[4][5] to as recent as 2014[2][6][1] have never found any difference in sound between Stradivari's violins and high-quality violins in comparable style of other makers and periods, nor has acoustic analysis. A Stradivarius is a high-quality instrument, but there is nothing unique about it sounds compared to other high-quality violins. The value comes primarily from its artistic and historical nature rather its sound quality. There are modern instruments which sound better even if they are not as valuable.

vandahm 4y ago
I don't play violin, but I play guitar and have built guitars. There has always been a lot of magical thinking about vintage guitars (and the very specific species of rare woods that they are made from) that just doesn't seem right to me in my experience. It doesn't surprise me that the same thing happens in the violin community. That said, I'm glad that these historical instruments are so carefully preserved. Violins are very delicate, and to compensate for that, they designed to be almost infinitely repairable. But that only happens if they are perceived to be significant enough to justify the work.
- bluGill 4y ago
  The good part is even cheap violins are repairable and thus there is plenty for amateurs to praction on before trying something that matters. I just finished fitting a new bridge on one of these. Lets just say I need more practice.
  - dbcurtis 4y ago
    Good setup and playability are huge. I got my kid a "beach and camping fiddle" -- this is not the instrument you use at recitals, this is the instrument you take for playing tunes around the campfire and isn't going to be materially damaged by a beer spill. Good strings, lower the nut for playability, carve the bridge and set the sound post properly, and you end up with a decent fiddle. Doesn't sound like the "good" instrument, but is still fun to play and sounds good enough for some fun. Carbon bows are getting darn good, too.
sporkl 4y ago
One not-exactly-related thought is that with violins, both the room and the bow have a very large effect on the sound; it certain cases, it might be quite difficult to tell the sound of violins apart because the room itself is having an outsize effect on the sound. This doesn't by any means reject the findings of the study, was just a thought. Source: violinist for 13 years, currently attending a top US music school (for composition, not violin, but I still play in ensembles and take lessons). Happy to try to answer any violin questions!
- Wistar 4y ago
  Is the experience of playing a very expensive violin more enjoyable? Is it easier to express the music on such an instrument? I ask because, for me, a pianist, an older Steinway B that has been meticulously maintained is so much … nicer, even easier, to get the sound I want out of the instrument, when compared to almost any other piano (with some exceptions, such as Grotrian, some Mason & Hamlins, Fandrich & Sons Custom and a few others).
  - shaunsingh0207 4y ago
    As someone who plays violin and piano, it's a similar experience. The more expensive violins will certainly sound better (at the minimum, they are usually more resonant), and it's much easier to evoke the emotion you'd like. The diminishing returns hit hard though, above a certain price you're paying for the history and brand. The steinway's are wonderful instruments aren't they! I've been dreaming about it and recently had the opportunity to buy a personal NY model B and I don't regret it. The joy it brings you when complex sounds are so easy to get out the instrument, it's priceless.
  - sporkl 4y ago
    It's a law of diminishing returns type of thing. I haven't played on any super super expensive violins, but there is definitely a big difference between ~$100 violins and ~$1000 violins. Generally, the more expensive the violin, the more resonant (as opposed to squeaky) it is.
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
analog31 4y ago
I'm a double bassist, and other family members are string players. I think there are problems beyond replicating famous instruments, especially for those of us who are likely to play "lesser" instruments throughout our lives / careers. One is that instruments are actually designed to sound different from one another, and it's up to the player to decide what they want. When I was shopping for my current bass, I was able to play instruments alongside one another that had noticeably different characteristics, along with different design details such as dimensions, and price tags. There is no "best" for makers to aim for, and among the choices that we can actually afford, there are real tradeoffs that have to be made. A wonderful sounding instrument might have maintenance issues that make it an expensive headache to own. I steered away from those basses regardless of sound. And there's no practical way for an individual musician to conduct a blind test or compare measured characteristics, though I would absolutely love it if there were. Most players would like to cut through the bullshit and woo. And don't get me started about bows and their maintenance. Oddly enough, Stradivarius could not have known how his fiddles would sound today, because most of them have been modernized.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > Oddly enough, Stradivarius could not have known how his fiddles would sound today, because most of them have been modernized. If they weren't, would the tone change as the materials aged?
  - analog31 4y ago
    Yes, according to conventional wisdom. Also, that change is thought to be accelerated by playing. It's thought that a brand new instrument needs to be "played in" for at least a few months, in order to discover its long term potential. Note that I'm being deliberately non-committal here, because some of this stuff could be bunk or overrated. I don't think my new bass has changed in 10 years. But my ears and my playing have changed. On the other hand, a modern violin is considerably louder than an un-modified Strad, of which there are only a few, and they tend to be museum pieces. If you want the sound of a Baroque fiddle, there are cheaper ways to lay your hands on one. ;-)
- 4y ago
zwieback 4y ago
For the Bell violin restoration I'd also be interested whether anyone would be able to detect a difference before and after. It shouldn't be too hard to teach a robot to bow a few notes and record whether it changed after he was done fixing it. Would only work well for open strings, though, once the player puts the finger on the board all sorts of instantaneous feedback happens...
- ioseph 4y ago
  Violinist here, bowing also includes a feedback loop so I don't think a linear mechanical action could indicate how it sounds with a human player. But my signals background says can't we just hit with a hammer and measure the impulse response?
  - zwieback 4y ago
    yeah, impulse response would definitely be a good starting point.
- quartesixte 4y ago
  You would need to teach the robot how to shift balance from where the index finger is placed to where the pinky is placed on the bow as the bow travels up and down the strings so that a consistent pressure is placed that produces the silvery, warm tone violins are best known for.
- tomcam 4y ago
  > It shouldn't be too hard to teach a robot to bow a few notes Uh no. Producing a good tone on violin takes months to start getting right. Holding the bow right even for open strings is nontrivial. Not saying a good robot violinist is impossible. It will happen in our lifetimes, even though I’m old. And I do like your concept of an objective player. But this is not in the “shouldn’t be too hard” category.
  - graycat 4y ago
    IMHO, for music, e.g., violin music, better than a robot playing a real violin is just a computer with some software, apparently still needing development, making the sounds of a violin, piano, orchestra, etc. I think of this future much like typewriters getting replaced by computers and word processing. But in both cases there are humans involved in the performance. BUT: There is a lot of culture surrounding music from its performance, and tough to get any of that from a computer performance. So, grand concert halls, orchestras, conductors, violinists, and famous, old violins have not much place in that future. But, to some extent, some of the music, even if performed by a computer with software with a human using the software as a tool does have a future.
kayson 4y ago
As a violinist I disagree with your conclusion. There are a lot of valid criticisms about those studies, including some from musicians who participated. There's also a notable conflict of interest in that the PI is a violin maker and has a vested interest in proving the quality of modern instruments. I summarized the research and criticisms in a Reddit comment[1] a while back. There are so many subjective components to sound preferences and value it's simply impossible to make claims like "nothing unique about it sounds compared to other high-quality violins", "value comes primarily from its artistic and historical nature rather its sound quality", or "There are modern instruments which sound better" [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ug0an2/why_cant_we_reproduce_the_sound_of_very_old/i6yaszd/ https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ug0an2/why_cant...
quartesixte 4y ago
>Scientists have used 3D lasers and CT scans to measure the precise geometry of a Stradivarius, but so far no one has been able to replicate its sound. To my understanding, most modern violins are patterned after the Stradivarius. Modern violins sound the way they so because of all the violins of the early Baroque, only Stradivarius’s violins (and to a smaller extent Guaneri’s) survived to the Classical and Romantic, where (with some modifications) became the Platonic pattern all luthiers followed for violin shape, size, and timbre. So in a way, all modern violins replicate Strads because that is the only violin sound in existence.
bsder 4y ago
In addition, the "Stradvarius" sound has been traced to the density of the wood due to the prolonged droughts that produced it. If we use similarly dense wood, modern violins have similar "quality". Furthermore, almost all of the Stradivarius violins have had some level of modifications or repairs to bring them up to a more "modern" standard. Is that still a "Strad"? In addition, wood is known to degrade over time. No matter how good the Stradivarius violins were, the longer they exist the less good they become.

by sxp 4y ago

vandahm 4y ago

I don't play violin, but I play guitar and have built guitars. There has always been a lot of magical thinking about vintage guitars (and the very specific species of rare woods that they are made from) that just doesn't seem right to me in my experience. It doesn't surprise me that the same thing happens in the violin community. That said, I'm glad that these historical instruments are so carefully preserved. Violins are very delicate, and to compensate for that, they designed to be almost infinitely repairable. But that only happens if they are perceived to be significant enough to justify the work.

bluGill 4y ago
The good part is even cheap violins are repairable and thus there is plenty for amateurs to praction on before trying something that matters. I just finished fitting a new bridge on one of these. Lets just say I need more practice.
- dbcurtis 4y ago
  Good setup and playability are huge. I got my kid a "beach and camping fiddle" -- this is not the instrument you use at recitals, this is the instrument you take for playing tunes around the campfire and isn't going to be materially damaged by a beer spill. Good strings, lower the nut for playability, carve the bridge and set the sound post properly, and you end up with a decent fiddle. Doesn't sound like the "good" instrument, but is still fun to play and sounds good enough for some fun. Carbon bows are getting darn good, too.

sporkl 4y ago

One not-exactly-related thought is that with violins, both the room and the bow have a very large effect on the sound; it certain cases, it might be quite difficult to tell the sound of violins apart because the room itself is having an outsize effect on the sound. This doesn't by any means reject the findings of the study, was just a thought. Source: violinist for 13 years, currently attending a top US music school (for composition, not violin, but I still play in ensembles and take lessons). Happy to try to answer any violin questions!

Wistar 4y ago
Is the experience of playing a very expensive violin more enjoyable? Is it easier to express the music on such an instrument? I ask because, for me, a pianist, an older Steinway B that has been meticulously maintained is so much … nicer, even easier, to get the sound I want out of the instrument, when compared to almost any other piano (with some exceptions, such as Grotrian, some Mason & Hamlins, Fandrich & Sons Custom and a few others).
- shaunsingh0207 4y ago
  As someone who plays violin and piano, it's a similar experience. The more expensive violins will certainly sound better (at the minimum, they are usually more resonant), and it's much easier to evoke the emotion you'd like. The diminishing returns hit hard though, above a certain price you're paying for the history and brand. The steinway's are wonderful instruments aren't they! I've been dreaming about it and recently had the opportunity to buy a personal NY model B and I don't regret it. The joy it brings you when complex sounds are so easy to get out the instrument, it's priceless.
- sporkl 4y ago
  It's a law of diminishing returns type of thing. I haven't played on any super super expensive violins, but there is definitely a big difference between ~$100 violins and ~$1000 violins. Generally, the more expensive the violin, the more resonant (as opposed to squeaky) it is.
  - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

analog31 4y ago

I'm a double bassist, and other family members are string players. I think there are problems beyond replicating famous instruments, especially for those of us who are likely to play "lesser" instruments throughout our lives / careers. One is that instruments are actually designed to sound different from one another, and it's up to the player to decide what they want. When I was shopping for my current bass, I was able to play instruments alongside one another that had noticeably different characteristics, along with different design details such as dimensions, and price tags. There is no "best" for makers to aim for, and among the choices that we can actually afford, there are real tradeoffs that have to be made. A wonderful sounding instrument might have maintenance issues that make it an expensive headache to own. I steered away from those basses regardless of sound. And there's no practical way for an individual musician to conduct a blind test or compare measured characteristics, though I would absolutely love it if there were. Most players would like to cut through the bullshit and woo. And don't get me started about bows and their maintenance. Oddly enough, Stradivarius could not have known how his fiddles would sound today, because most of them have been modernized.

CharlesW 4y ago
> Oddly enough, Stradivarius could not have known how his fiddles would sound today, because most of them have been modernized. If they weren't, would the tone change as the materials aged?
- analog31 4y ago
  Yes, according to conventional wisdom. Also, that change is thought to be accelerated by playing. It's thought that a brand new instrument needs to be "played in" for at least a few months, in order to discover its long term potential. Note that I'm being deliberately non-committal here, because some of this stuff could be bunk or overrated. I don't think my new bass has changed in 10 years. But my ears and my playing have changed. On the other hand, a modern violin is considerably louder than an un-modified Strad, of which there are only a few, and they tend to be museum pieces. If you want the sound of a Baroque fiddle, there are cheaper ways to lay your hands on one. ;-)
4y ago

zwieback 4y ago

For the Bell violin restoration I'd also be interested whether anyone would be able to detect a difference before and after. It shouldn't be too hard to teach a robot to bow a few notes and record whether it changed after he was done fixing it. Would only work well for open strings, though, once the player puts the finger on the board all sorts of instantaneous feedback happens...

ioseph 4y ago
Violinist here, bowing also includes a feedback loop so I don't think a linear mechanical action could indicate how it sounds with a human player. But my signals background says can't we just hit with a hammer and measure the impulse response?
- zwieback 4y ago
  yeah, impulse response would definitely be a good starting point.
quartesixte 4y ago
You would need to teach the robot how to shift balance from where the index finger is placed to where the pinky is placed on the bow as the bow travels up and down the strings so that a consistent pressure is placed that produces the silvery, warm tone violins are best known for.
tomcam 4y ago
> It shouldn't be too hard to teach a robot to bow a few notes Uh no. Producing a good tone on violin takes months to start getting right. Holding the bow right even for open strings is nontrivial. Not saying a good robot violinist is impossible. It will happen in our lifetimes, even though I’m old. And I do like your concept of an objective player. But this is not in the “shouldn’t be too hard” category.
- graycat 4y ago
  IMHO, for music, e.g., violin music, better than a robot playing a real violin is just a computer with some software, apparently still needing development, making the sounds of a violin, piano, orchestra, etc. I think of this future much like typewriters getting replaced by computers and word processing. But in both cases there are humans involved in the performance. BUT: There is a lot of culture surrounding music from its performance, and tough to get any of that from a computer performance. So, grand concert halls, orchestras, conductors, violinists, and famous, old violins have not much place in that future. But, to some extent, some of the music, even if performed by a computer with software with a human using the software as a tool does have a future.

kayson 4y ago

As a violinist I disagree with your conclusion. There are a lot of valid criticisms about those studies, including some from musicians who participated. There's also a notable conflict of interest in that the PI is a violin maker and has a vested interest in proving the quality of modern instruments. I summarized the research and criticisms in a Reddit comment[1] a while back. There are so many subjective components to sound preferences and value it's simply impossible to make claims like "nothing unique about it sounds compared to other high-quality violins", "value comes primarily from its artistic and historical nature rather its sound quality", or "There are modern instruments which sound better" [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ug0an2/why_cant_we_reproduce_the_sound_of_very_old/i6yaszd/ https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ug0an2/why_cant...

quartesixte 4y ago

>Scientists have used 3D lasers and CT scans to measure the precise geometry of a Stradivarius, but so far no one has been able to replicate its sound. To my understanding, most modern violins are patterned after the Stradivarius. Modern violins sound the way they so because of all the violins of the early Baroque, only Stradivarius’s violins (and to a smaller extent Guaneri’s) survived to the Classical and Romantic, where (with some modifications) became the Platonic pattern all luthiers followed for violin shape, size, and timbre. So in a way, all modern violins replicate Strads because that is the only violin sound in existence.

bsder 4y ago

In addition, the "Stradvarius" sound has been traced to the density of the wood due to the prolonged droughts that produced it. If we use similarly dense wood, modern violins have similar "quality". Furthermore, almost all of the Stradivarius violins have had some level of modifications or repairs to bring them up to a more "modern" standard. Is that still a "Strad"? In addition, wood is known to degrade over time. No matter how good the Stradivarius violins were, the longer they exist the less good they become.