6 ms·

ASCII is so bloated that it even has a ligature from a dead language.

saghm 4y ago
We can't get rid of it now! How else would we make pointers?
wanderingstan 4y ago
Note that there are a lot of ligatures in our symbols: - ! from “Io” - ? From “Quo” - W from UU (or VV, back before U and V diverged) - And German of course has the ß, ligature of soft s with s. There is not really a clear delineation between when a ligature becomes a letter, at least before formal systems like ASCII required them.
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  It’s considered a logogram now.
bradrn 4y ago
It’s used in English, which as far as I’m aware isn’t dead.
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  Is that right.
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  Opportunistically and not out of necessity, I think. As far as I know all it means is “and.” If any word deserves a character, it’s “the.”
  - ironick09 4y ago
    It’s used as a symbol in programming, I have a hard time imagining a symbol that could replace “the”. That’s not to say there isn’t one that would be suitable, I just lack the creativity or imagination to think of one.
    - Waterluvian 4y ago
      The use in programming is also just a result of it being available. It’s a great fit for binary AND, logical AND, but there’s countless symbols that we just assign to operators because they’re available.
      - pacaro 4y ago
        Prolog uses /\ and \/ for bitwise AND and OR respectively, which certainly tips a hat to one system of logic notation—of course for conjunction and disjunction between clauses it uses , (comma) and ; (semi-colon)
    - wolfgang42 4y ago
      Perhaps, taking inspiration from Tironian shorthand, “𝈭” (a backwards version of ⁊ “et”, so to speak) would be suitable?
  - colanderman 4y ago
    I believe "yͤ" is the character you desire. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_articles#Ye_form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_articles#Ye_form
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - wiml 4y ago
      I prefer the form with the þorn, but it's harder to enter on a phone keyboard. (In fact I don't know if there's any way at all to input that combining superscript "e" on my phone.) There are a bunch of old handwritten abbreviations that have fallen out of use probably due to typewriter/computer limitations.
      - Symbiote 4y ago
        Þ is a long press on T, and Ð a long press on D, on my phone. But ðis might be because I have Danish as well as English installed, at at least Ð is required for Faroese names.
  - oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
    Yes, but there are nuances, as mentioned in the article: > In screenplays, two authors joined with & collaborated on the script, while two authors joined with and worked on the script at different times and may not have consulted each other at all. I sometimes use it to avoid awkwardness in lists, e.g. "I ate fish & chips and drank a cup of tea". I guess both examples use & as a stronger binder than and.
    - nvader 4y ago
      boots & cats and boots & cats
  - wl 4y ago
    It's also occasionally used in English texts as a ligature for "et" in the Latin abbreviation of etcetera: &c.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> ASCII is so bloated that it even has a ligature from a dead language. It was actually an english letter (at least as recently as the late 19th Century), considered part of the alphabet; its current name being a corruption of the end of the alphabet recitation including it, “... and, per se and”.
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  It was in fact used in old timey spelling like “Well &ctually” by the more high-brow.
gerdesj 4y ago
Ampersand is really not dead - I use it quite regularly. I always sign cards from me and the wife as x & y. It is shift 7 on a en_GB keyboard English also used to have the letter thorne. It looks quite a lot like a Y or y and leads to the notion that "Ye olde shoppe" is NOT pronounced as "the old shop". Here the the would probably have a long e so "thee". Modern thornes look more like a d - see Icelandic for example. See wikipedia for the full run down. I still see r written as a sort of squiggly mess rotated 45 degrees. Mostly by the generation before mine (I'm 53). A lowercase s used to be written looking like f with the crossbar missing. I suspect the kids might have said: "et per se and" or "ut ..." and then that collapsed into "and per se and" -> ampers& (yes I have seen that monstrosity used in anger)!
- Symbiote 4y ago
  Þorn was Þ (lowercase þ), þhough þe usual handwriting style gradually brought þe shape closer to y. When printing presses were imported from continental Europe, þey didn't have þis letter, so þe letter y was used as a substitute. Eð is Ð/ð, which has ðe same sound. Ðorn derives from runes, eð from Roman script. Eð is still used in Icelandic and Faroese. I ðink English would benefit from a few more letters, alðough ðis one isn't ðe most useful. Æ or Ø, or accents on vowels, would be more useful for spelling and pronunciation. "Thomas" is ðe only word I can ðink of with a TH ðat wouldn't be a þorn.
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  I wish for once on this website that people would just harangue me for making bad jokes instead of dumping their well-actuallys.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

We can't get rid of it now! How else would we make pointers?

Note that there are a lot of ligatures in our symbols: - ! from “Io” - ? From “Quo” - W from UU (or VV, back before U and V diverged) - And German of course has the ß, ligature of soft s with s. There is not really a clear delineation between when a ligature becomes a letter, at least before formal systems like ASCII required them.

avgcorrection 4y ago
It’s considered a logogram now.

bradrn 4y ago

It’s used in English, which as far as I’m aware isn’t dead.

avgcorrection 4y ago
Is that right.
Waterluvian 4y ago
Opportunistically and not out of necessity, I think. As far as I know all it means is “and.” If any word deserves a character, it’s “the.”
- ironick09 4y ago
  It’s used as a symbol in programming, I have a hard time imagining a symbol that could replace “the”. That’s not to say there isn’t one that would be suitable, I just lack the creativity or imagination to think of one.
  - Waterluvian 4y ago
    The use in programming is also just a result of it being available. It’s a great fit for binary AND, logical AND, but there’s countless symbols that we just assign to operators because they’re available.
    - pacaro 4y ago
      Prolog uses /\ and \/ for bitwise AND and OR respectively, which certainly tips a hat to one system of logic notation—of course for conjunction and disjunction between clauses it uses , (comma) and ; (semi-colon)
  - wolfgang42 4y ago
    Perhaps, taking inspiration from Tironian shorthand, “𝈭” (a backwards version of ⁊ “et”, so to speak) would be suitable?
- colanderman 4y ago
  I believe "yͤ" is the character you desire. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_articles#Ye_form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_articles#Ye_form
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - wiml 4y ago
    I prefer the form with the þorn, but it's harder to enter on a phone keyboard. (In fact I don't know if there's any way at all to input that combining superscript "e" on my phone.) There are a bunch of old handwritten abbreviations that have fallen out of use probably due to typewriter/computer limitations.
    - Symbiote 4y ago
      Þ is a long press on T, and Ð a long press on D, on my phone. But ðis might be because I have Danish as well as English installed, at at least Ð is required for Faroese names.
- oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
  Yes, but there are nuances, as mentioned in the article: > In screenplays, two authors joined with & collaborated on the script, while two authors joined with and worked on the script at different times and may not have consulted each other at all. I sometimes use it to avoid awkwardness in lists, e.g. "I ate fish & chips and drank a cup of tea". I guess both examples use & as a stronger binder than and.
  - nvader 4y ago
    boots & cats and boots & cats
- wl 4y ago
  It's also occasionally used in English texts as a ligature for "et" in the Latin abbreviation of etcetera: &c.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> ASCII is so bloated that it even has a ligature from a dead language. It was actually an english letter (at least as recently as the late 19th Century), considered part of the alphabet; its current name being a corruption of the end of the alphabet recitation including it, “... and, per se and”.

avgcorrection 4y ago
It was in fact used in old timey spelling like “Well &ctually” by the more high-brow.

gerdesj 4y ago

Ampersand is really not dead - I use it quite regularly. I always sign cards from me and the wife as x & y. It is shift 7 on a en_GB keyboard English also used to have the letter thorne. It looks quite a lot like a Y or y and leads to the notion that "Ye olde shoppe" is NOT pronounced as "the old shop". Here the the would probably have a long e so "thee". Modern thornes look more like a d - see Icelandic for example. See wikipedia for the full run down. I still see r written as a sort of squiggly mess rotated 45 degrees. Mostly by the generation before mine (I'm 53). A lowercase s used to be written looking like f with the crossbar missing. I suspect the kids might have said: "et per se and" or "ut ..." and then that collapsed into "and per se and" -> ampers& (yes I have seen that monstrosity used in anger)!

Symbiote 4y ago
Þorn was Þ (lowercase þ), þhough þe usual handwriting style gradually brought þe shape closer to y. When printing presses were imported from continental Europe, þey didn't have þis letter, so þe letter y was used as a substitute. Eð is Ð/ð, which has ðe same sound. Ðorn derives from runes, eð from Roman script. Eð is still used in Icelandic and Faroese. I ðink English would benefit from a few more letters, alðough ðis one isn't ðe most useful. Æ or Ø, or accents on vowels, would be more useful for spelling and pronunciation. "Thomas" is ðe only word I can ðink of with a TH ðat wouldn't be a þorn.
avgcorrection 4y ago
I wish for once on this website that people would just harangue me for making bad jokes instead of dumping their well-actuallys.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]