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> In your position, the expectation is that you are mostly a working through others and acting as a force multiplier of their work. OP said that his role is se

> In your position, the expectation is that you are mostly a working through others and acting as a force multiplier of their work. OP said that his role is senior developer. Developer. Not a manager. Not a team lead. But someone who wants to write code, preferably together with other experienced developers, and by doing so, enjoy the process of learning and understanding technology at a deeper level. Why, then, would one expect his responsibility to be motivating juniors, giving them work, or raising them to be leaders? Also, if someone wants to write code, teamed up with other senior developers, where should one go?

thatguymike 4y ago
...Because OP is getting paid a big salary to do what the business requires, not what they wish their responsibility could be? > Also, if someone wants to write code, in a team with other senior developers, where should one go? > Startups and consulting gigs probably better align with wanting to be hands on keyboard, but at the price of a paycut.
- azangru 4y ago
  > ...Because OP is getting paid a big salary to do what the business requires, not what they wish their responsibility could be? Is this what the business truly requires though? As a person grows his skill in software development domain, does the business really require him to transition from being an expert programmer to being an unskilled manager? Being a competent software developer doesn't qualify one for a big salary? Isn't it what the Peter Principle was all about?
  - Tyrek 4y ago
    What the business truly requires is an abstract question. What the business expects of him, however, has been answered in this thread. The purpose of a system is what it does, etc.
celim307 4y ago
This is what the role looks like in the vast majority of bigger tech companies, for good reason. Tech companies biggest hurdle is steering the boat. To launch anything you need to coordinate, align, and get consensus, beyond just your own team. Can engineerings develop in a vacuum? Can they take even well defined tickets, and build an optimal solution without knowing the product direction and vision? The manager is a people manager, not a product builder. Marketing, product, other engineering teams, all need to be aligned. As the most senior you're probably setting the high level architecture, so you're going to be the "API" or point of contact on which the other architects on other teams will need to communicate. Selling that architecture to juniors involves all those things mentioned, and as the architect you're responsible and the best person suited to judging their work as aligning with the vision/architecture. Senior role is usually defined and evaluated in performance reviews for the impact that goes beyond the code. I'm not explaining it super well, but its something you realize is a natural part of the role as an engineering leader. And that what a senior+ engineer is, a leader. Mid level engineer is a terminal role in a lot of companies for those who don't want the added responsibility. To your other point, there do exists teams where its all seniors who mostly do IC work. These are usually high-value, high-risk, core product engineering R&D. Or some kind of DX (Developer Experience) team where you are building tooling for other engineers, but even these teams too often has juniors, as at the end of the day, they are just another type of platform team
ChuckMcM 4y ago
Yes, and now his role is developing the technical talents of others so that they too can be senior developers. If you're in a large company that is 90% of what is expected out of senior technical people.
ctvo 4y ago
> OP said that his role is senior developer. Developer. Not a manager. Not a team lead. But someone who wants to write code, preferably together with other experienced developers, and by doing so, enjoy the process of learning and understanding technology at a deeper level. Why, then, would one expect his responsibility to be motivating juniors, giving them work, or raising them to be leaders? It sounds like you and the OP want to be "just" an engineer (mid level ), which is a terminal level at these companies. You can stay there your entire career, make the maximum salary for that band, and continue to focus mostly on writing code. Wanting the higher pay and title, but none of the responsibility isn't realistic. You have misunderstood what the senior / staff role is, not the company. The expectation is you lead, mentor, and do less coding. Alternatively, become very, very deep at a niche field, like high performance computing, and go work for a trading firm if your goal is the same salary while focusing on writing code. Few others will pay you 500k+ to solve common distributed system problems and producing CRUD apps.
- jeffwask 4y ago
  This is the most honest answer and something I have seen a lot folks who want the higher pay of the higher roles but none of the responsibility.
  - azangru 4y ago
    > lot folks who want the higher pay of the higher roles but none of the responsibility Isn't building a high-quality product with a sound architecture, while making correct technical decisions, and writing well-tested and properly documented code, all the while identifying and integrating the best practices that your field has developed so far responsibility enough?
    - jeffwask 4y ago
      Not really, no. The value of your contribution over the person next to you is marginal at best after a certain point. Even if you are say 50% more efficient than the next engineer. You will still be less valuable than someone who operates as a force multiplier improving the efficiency of 8 engineers by 15%. Now, don't get me wrong I love having doers on my team but when the rubber meets the road I'll reward the folks who lift all boats first. Especially with the rate of turnover these days, having someone who can rapidly onboard and get engineers up and running can make huge difference and if you are working on basic B2B SAAS stuff on standard languages, there are tons of good mid-levels out there. If you shift into niche languages or are doing something complex the equation is likely to change.
BurningFrog 4y ago
> Also, if someone wants to write code, teamed up with other senior developers, where should one go? Many startups are like this. They're typically picky about letting new people in.

thatguymike 4y ago

...Because OP is getting paid a big salary to do what the business requires, not what they wish their responsibility could be? > Also, if someone wants to write code, in a team with other senior developers, where should one go? > Startups and consulting gigs probably better align with wanting to be hands on keyboard, but at the price of a paycut.

azangru 4y ago
> ...Because OP is getting paid a big salary to do what the business requires, not what they wish their responsibility could be? Is this what the business truly requires though? As a person grows his skill in software development domain, does the business really require him to transition from being an expert programmer to being an unskilled manager? Being a competent software developer doesn't qualify one for a big salary? Isn't it what the Peter Principle was all about?
- Tyrek 4y ago
  What the business truly requires is an abstract question. What the business expects of him, however, has been answered in this thread. The purpose of a system is what it does, etc.

celim307 4y ago

This is what the role looks like in the vast majority of bigger tech companies, for good reason. Tech companies biggest hurdle is steering the boat. To launch anything you need to coordinate, align, and get consensus, beyond just your own team. Can engineerings develop in a vacuum? Can they take even well defined tickets, and build an optimal solution without knowing the product direction and vision? The manager is a people manager, not a product builder. Marketing, product, other engineering teams, all need to be aligned. As the most senior you're probably setting the high level architecture, so you're going to be the "API" or point of contact on which the other architects on other teams will need to communicate. Selling that architecture to juniors involves all those things mentioned, and as the architect you're responsible and the best person suited to judging their work as aligning with the vision/architecture. Senior role is usually defined and evaluated in performance reviews for the impact that goes beyond the code. I'm not explaining it super well, but its something you realize is a natural part of the role as an engineering leader. And that what a senior+ engineer is, a leader. Mid level engineer is a terminal role in a lot of companies for those who don't want the added responsibility. To your other point, there do exists teams where its all seniors who mostly do IC work. These are usually high-value, high-risk, core product engineering R&D. Or some kind of DX (Developer Experience) team where you are building tooling for other engineers, but even these teams too often has juniors, as at the end of the day, they are just another type of platform team

ChuckMcM 4y ago

Yes, and now his role is developing the technical talents of others so that they too can be senior developers. If you're in a large company that is 90% of what is expected out of senior technical people.

ctvo 4y ago

> OP said that his role is senior developer. Developer. Not a manager. Not a team lead. But someone who wants to write code, preferably together with other experienced developers, and by doing so, enjoy the process of learning and understanding technology at a deeper level. Why, then, would one expect his responsibility to be motivating juniors, giving them work, or raising them to be leaders? It sounds like you and the OP want to be "just" an engineer (mid level ), which is a terminal level at these companies. You can stay there your entire career, make the maximum salary for that band, and continue to focus mostly on writing code. Wanting the higher pay and title, but none of the responsibility isn't realistic. You have misunderstood what the senior / staff role is, not the company. The expectation is you lead, mentor, and do less coding. Alternatively, become very, very deep at a niche field, like high performance computing, and go work for a trading firm if your goal is the same salary while focusing on writing code. Few others will pay you 500k+ to solve common distributed system problems and producing CRUD apps.

jeffwask 4y ago
This is the most honest answer and something I have seen a lot folks who want the higher pay of the higher roles but none of the responsibility.
- azangru 4y ago
  > lot folks who want the higher pay of the higher roles but none of the responsibility Isn't building a high-quality product with a sound architecture, while making correct technical decisions, and writing well-tested and properly documented code, all the while identifying and integrating the best practices that your field has developed so far responsibility enough?
  - jeffwask 4y ago
    Not really, no. The value of your contribution over the person next to you is marginal at best after a certain point. Even if you are say 50% more efficient than the next engineer. You will still be less valuable than someone who operates as a force multiplier improving the efficiency of 8 engineers by 15%. Now, don't get me wrong I love having doers on my team but when the rubber meets the road I'll reward the folks who lift all boats first. Especially with the rate of turnover these days, having someone who can rapidly onboard and get engineers up and running can make huge difference and if you are working on basic B2B SAAS stuff on standard languages, there are tons of good mid-levels out there. If you shift into niche languages or are doing something complex the equation is likely to change.

BurningFrog 4y ago

> Also, if someone wants to write code, teamed up with other senior developers, where should one go? Many startups are like this. They're typically picky about letting new people in.