5 ms·

Jews on college campuses [1] and jews in the black lives matter movement [2] come to mind. [1] https://www.frc.org/antisemitism https://www.frc.org/antisemitis

by hersko 4y ago

Jews on college campuses [1] and jews in the black lives matter movement [2] come to mind. [1] https://www.frc.org/antisemitism https://www.frc.org/antisemitism [2] https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/black-lives-matters-jewish-problem-in-their-own-words/ https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/black-lives-matters-jewish-p...

unshavedyak 4y ago
That's definitely an interesting one. Not shared in my group, nor would i understand what "the left" would have against Jews, especially in a religious context. They seem rather innocuous when compared to the more vocal and physical religions. Do you honestly believe most left leaning individuals have something against the Jews?
- Jensson 4y ago
  > Do you honestly believe most left leaning individuals have something against the Jews? Antisemitism is more common among left wingers than right wingers, so yes. Or alternatively you could say "do you honestly believe most right leaving individuals have something against X" for so many topics, X could be black people etc. Right wingers are more likely to be against those things, but it isn't like all of them are evil, similarly there is more Jew hate among left wingers, but it isn't like most of them hate Jews either. Most Jew hate today has to do with Israel, right wing is mostly pro Istrael, so most Jew hate comes from the left.
  - unshavedyak 4y ago
    That's interesting. I can understand being reasonably anti-Israel, but i'm suspicious that many people take the leap from being anti-Israel to being anti-Jew. Especially when you consider how many people of both the Jewish faith and/or ethnicity live within the United States. Tbh it feels like a straw man, but we're speculating anyway, so i can't fault you for it. I appreciate the discussion nonetheless. I'll definitely be curious to talk to people i know (when politics comes up) to see their thoughts on Jews and Islam (as a different commenter pointed out). I suspect that no one i know will be anti-Jew or radically pro-Islam. Appreciate the points of discussion/anecdotes. I can't say i agree with them, but they were certainly a surprise. Far from what i expected.
    - this2shallPass 4y ago
      > While antisemitism in the U.S. is often written about through a “both sides” lens, our evidence — the first of its kind in testing hypotheses through experiments on a large repre- sentative sample — suggests the problem of antisemitism is much more serious on the right than the left. This evidence confirms that the antisemitism that has been on prominent display in white nationalist protests is not merely confined to a tiny group of extremists; antisemitic attitudes appear quite common among young conservatives, and much more so than among older conservatives or among liberals of any age. * https://www.eitanhersh.com/uploads/7/9/7/5/7975685/hersh_royden_antisemitism_040921.pdf https://www.eitanhersh.com/uploads/7/9/7/5/7975685/hersh_roy...
    - luckylion 4y ago
      > I can understand being reasonably anti-Israel Pretty much all "I'm only against Israel's policies" is shy Antisemitism. You can easily test this by asking them about other countries that have similar (or much harsher) policies as Israel and see whether the "no no, it's not about being Jewish, not at all" person is similarly upset about those and demands Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions. 99% aren't and it really is only about the Jews - the Antizionism is just a cloak over the Antisemitism because the pure stuff doesn't fly in polite society, but if you pretend that it's not about the Jews then you can go at it.
      - unshavedyak 4y ago
        Not sure i follow, are you assuming i'm in favor of other countries policies that match Israel? To be fair i know little on the subject, and don't claim to. The only reason i said "i can understand .." is that i know it's a hot-button topic. Israel is often portrayed in the west as being overly militaristic towards neighboring areas. The United States itself does similar, depending on who you ask. I judge both quite harshly on this front. I also know very little about world politics. Both in ignorance and on purpose, heh.
        luckylion 4y ago
        No, I don't mean you personally, I mean the people you might talk to in your circles. Test them by pointing out behavior that they find abhorrent when done by Israel, and see whether they react similarly (by demanding action against them, denying them a right to nationhood etc). If they do: good. If they don't: it's about the Jews, not about the behavior. And from my experience, they almost always don't, and you really need to press them on the issue until they'll halfheartedly agree that yeah, that is also not good what the non-jewish country does. Case in point: the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" tried to sail from Turkey to Gaza to protest Israel. It's like starting a Journey in the Third Reich towards Stalin's Russia to protest the inhumanity of Finnish policies. I'm sure you're familiar with the idea of "Driving While Black". Israel is "Being A Country While Jewish". Some cops will pull over Black people all day long and claim that the color of their skin has nothing to do with it, it's just about how they drive. But you'll see them letting white drivers do all kinds of stunts and will quickly understand what the deciding factor is. You can do the same with people's opinions on Israel.
  - spaced-out 4y ago
    >Antisemitism is more common among left wingers than right wingers Yes, I remember that left wing protest where people chanted "Jews will not replace us". Remind me, which president was it that said there were "good people" in that crowd?
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      Here's a transcript that seems fairly accurate to the video interview I saw contemporaneously: https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/15/full-text-trump-comments-white-supremacists-alt-left-transcript-241662 https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/15/full-text-trump-co... His own words: "you had people – and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally – but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people, but you also had troublemakers and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets and with the baseball bats – you had a lot of bad people in the other group too." There are many good reasons to dislike Trump but you weaken them by association when you repeat the false accusations and misrepresentations.
      - manuelabeledo 4y ago
        Related: https://twitter.com/IamRageSparkle/status/1280891537451343873 https://twitter.com/IamRageSparkle/status/128089153745134387... "Once you let a nazi in your bar, it becomes a nazi bar."
        LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        It was a protest in a park, nobody could keep anyone else out. And does that apply equally to Antifa?
        manuelabeledo 4y ago
        Are we really comparing people burning ATMs with nazis now?
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Do you have ANY evidence to back up these claims?
  - this2shallPass 4y ago
    This view isn't supported by studies in this area. They do find antisemitism on the left and the center of the US political spectrum - just more on the right. > While antisemitism in the U.S. is often written about through a “both sides” lens, our evidence — the first of its kind in testing hypotheses through experiments on a large repre- sentative sample — suggests the problem of antisemitism is much more serious on the right than the left. This evidence confirms that the antisemitism that has been on prominent display in white nationalist protests is not merely confined to a tiny group of extremists; antisemitic attitudes appear quite common among young conservatives, and much more so than among older conservatives or among liberals of any age. * https://www.eitanhersh.com/uploads/7/9/7/5/7975685/hersh_royden_antisemitism_040921.pdf https://www.eitanhersh.com/uploads/7/9/7/5/7975685/hersh_roy...
    - Jensson 4y ago
      I live in Europe, things are very different here. ChatGPT is a global program so I'm not sure why we should talk about USA specifically. Antisemitism is on the rise in Europe due to Muslim immigration, and the left supports or downplays those acts while the right tries to take it seriously. So like how Trump said there were fine people among that crowd, the left in Europe says there are fine people among the crowds that goes and harasses and murders Jews. You shouldn't judge individuals for being from a group, but that isn't what is happening here, they are trying to downplay the acts of individuals just because they belong to a specific group.
      - this2shallPass 4y ago
        From what I have seen and observed, I wouldn't be surprised if things aren't that different in Europe from the US, just somewhat worse on the whole. That is, antisemitism is found on all sides of the political spectrum including in the center. Also, that antisemitism is most common, and often most overt, on the right / far right. Share any studies you have supporting or refuting that though. This covers many countries, and does have multiple years in many of them, but it doesn't distinguish by political views. Just gender, age, and religious affiliation by country. https://global100.adl.org/map https://global100.adl.org/map
- golemiprague 4y ago
  [dead]
a_shovel 4y ago
The cited examples are just criticism of Israel and support for Palestine labeled as antisemitism. This is really weak stuff.
- case0x00 4y ago
  if after reading those things you honestly can't see the difference then you are definitely part of the problem.

by hersko 4y ago

unshavedyak 4y ago

That's definitely an interesting one. Not shared in my group, nor would i understand what "the left" would have against Jews, especially in a religious context. They seem rather innocuous when compared to the more vocal and physical religions. Do you honestly believe most left leaning individuals have something against the Jews?

Jensson 4y ago
> Do you honestly believe most left leaning individuals have something against the Jews? Antisemitism is more common among left wingers than right wingers, so yes. Or alternatively you could say "do you honestly believe most right leaving individuals have something against X" for so many topics, X could be black people etc. Right wingers are more likely to be against those things, but it isn't like all of them are evil, similarly there is more Jew hate among left wingers, but it isn't like most of them hate Jews either. Most Jew hate today has to do with Israel, right wing is mostly pro Istrael, so most Jew hate comes from the left.
- unshavedyak 4y ago
  That's interesting. I can understand being reasonably anti-Israel, but i'm suspicious that many people take the leap from being anti-Israel to being anti-Jew. Especially when you consider how many people of both the Jewish faith and/or ethnicity live within the United States. Tbh it feels like a straw man, but we're speculating anyway, so i can't fault you for it. I appreciate the discussion nonetheless. I'll definitely be curious to talk to people i know (when politics comes up) to see their thoughts on Jews and Islam (as a different commenter pointed out). I suspect that no one i know will be anti-Jew or radically pro-Islam. Appreciate the points of discussion/anecdotes. I can't say i agree with them, but they were certainly a surprise. Far from what i expected.
  - this2shallPass 4y ago
    > While antisemitism in the U.S. is often written about through a “both sides” lens, our evidence — the first of its kind in testing hypotheses through experiments on a large repre- sentative sample — suggests the problem of antisemitism is much more serious on the right than the left. This evidence confirms that the antisemitism that has been on prominent display in white nationalist protests is not merely confined to a tiny group of extremists; antisemitic attitudes appear quite common among young conservatives, and much more so than among older conservatives or among liberals of any age. * https://www.eitanhersh.com/uploads/7/9/7/5/7975685/hersh_royden_antisemitism_040921.pdf https://www.eitanhersh.com/uploads/7/9/7/5/7975685/hersh_roy...
  - luckylion 4y ago
    > I can understand being reasonably anti-Israel Pretty much all "I'm only against Israel's policies" is shy Antisemitism. You can easily test this by asking them about other countries that have similar (or much harsher) policies as Israel and see whether the "no no, it's not about being Jewish, not at all" person is similarly upset about those and demands Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions. 99% aren't and it really is only about the Jews - the Antizionism is just a cloak over the Antisemitism because the pure stuff doesn't fly in polite society, but if you pretend that it's not about the Jews then you can go at it.
    - unshavedyak 4y ago
      Not sure i follow, are you assuming i'm in favor of other countries policies that match Israel? To be fair i know little on the subject, and don't claim to. The only reason i said "i can understand .." is that i know it's a hot-button topic. Israel is often portrayed in the west as being overly militaristic towards neighboring areas. The United States itself does similar, depending on who you ask. I judge both quite harshly on this front. I also know very little about world politics. Both in ignorance and on purpose, heh.
      - luckylion 4y ago
        No, I don't mean you personally, I mean the people you might talk to in your circles. Test them by pointing out behavior that they find abhorrent when done by Israel, and see whether they react similarly (by demanding action against them, denying them a right to nationhood etc). If they do: good. If they don't: it's about the Jews, not about the behavior. And from my experience, they almost always don't, and you really need to press them on the issue until they'll halfheartedly agree that yeah, that is also not good what the non-jewish country does. Case in point: the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" tried to sail from Turkey to Gaza to protest Israel. It's like starting a Journey in the Third Reich towards Stalin's Russia to protest the inhumanity of Finnish policies. I'm sure you're familiar with the idea of "Driving While Black". Israel is "Being A Country While Jewish". Some cops will pull over Black people all day long and claim that the color of their skin has nothing to do with it, it's just about how they drive. But you'll see them letting white drivers do all kinds of stunts and will quickly understand what the deciding factor is. You can do the same with people's opinions on Israel.
- spaced-out 4y ago
  >Antisemitism is more common among left wingers than right wingers Yes, I remember that left wing protest where people chanted "Jews will not replace us". Remind me, which president was it that said there were "good people" in that crowd?
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    Here's a transcript that seems fairly accurate to the video interview I saw contemporaneously: https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/15/full-text-trump-comments-white-supremacists-alt-left-transcript-241662 https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/15/full-text-trump-co... His own words: "you had people – and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally – but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people, but you also had troublemakers and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets and with the baseball bats – you had a lot of bad people in the other group too." There are many good reasons to dislike Trump but you weaken them by association when you repeat the false accusations and misrepresentations.
    - manuelabeledo 4y ago
      Related: https://twitter.com/IamRageSparkle/status/1280891537451343873 https://twitter.com/IamRageSparkle/status/128089153745134387... "Once you let a nazi in your bar, it becomes a nazi bar."
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        It was a protest in a park, nobody could keep anyone else out. And does that apply equally to Antifa?
        manuelabeledo 4y ago
        Are we really comparing people burning ATMs with nazis now?
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Do you have ANY evidence to back up these claims?
- this2shallPass 4y ago
  This view isn't supported by studies in this area. They do find antisemitism on the left and the center of the US political spectrum - just more on the right. > While antisemitism in the U.S. is often written about through a “both sides” lens, our evidence — the first of its kind in testing hypotheses through experiments on a large repre- sentative sample — suggests the problem of antisemitism is much more serious on the right than the left. This evidence confirms that the antisemitism that has been on prominent display in white nationalist protests is not merely confined to a tiny group of extremists; antisemitic attitudes appear quite common among young conservatives, and much more so than among older conservatives or among liberals of any age. * https://www.eitanhersh.com/uploads/7/9/7/5/7975685/hersh_royden_antisemitism_040921.pdf https://www.eitanhersh.com/uploads/7/9/7/5/7975685/hersh_roy...
  - Jensson 4y ago
    I live in Europe, things are very different here. ChatGPT is a global program so I'm not sure why we should talk about USA specifically. Antisemitism is on the rise in Europe due to Muslim immigration, and the left supports or downplays those acts while the right tries to take it seriously. So like how Trump said there were fine people among that crowd, the left in Europe says there are fine people among the crowds that goes and harasses and murders Jews. You shouldn't judge individuals for being from a group, but that isn't what is happening here, they are trying to downplay the acts of individuals just because they belong to a specific group.
    - this2shallPass 4y ago
      From what I have seen and observed, I wouldn't be surprised if things aren't that different in Europe from the US, just somewhat worse on the whole. That is, antisemitism is found on all sides of the political spectrum including in the center. Also, that antisemitism is most common, and often most overt, on the right / far right. Share any studies you have supporting or refuting that though. This covers many countries, and does have multiple years in many of them, but it doesn't distinguish by political views. Just gender, age, and religious affiliation by country. https://global100.adl.org/map https://global100.adl.org/map
golemiprague 4y ago
[dead]

a_shovel 4y ago

The cited examples are just criticism of Israel and support for Palestine labeled as antisemitism. This is really weak stuff.

case0x00 4y ago
if after reading those things you honestly can't see the difference then you are definitely part of the problem.