5 ms·

This is really, really scary and what scares me even more is these proposals just seems to keep coming and in time some of them will probably make their way int

This is really, really scary and what scares me even more is these proposals just seems to keep coming and in time some of them will probably make their way into law. Used to be for EU but if any regulation like this goes through, I will immedietly vote for any politician willing to exit the EU. Honestly, I am kind of for leaving the EU anyway since I don't like the large centralized power it has become. There is litterally few who understand how the EU works, there is practically no way of knowing how to change EU politicians minds etc. If I want to change public opinion in my home country, that is way easier than doing it for the majority of the EU countries. It is barely a question of time until bad stuff happens in my view.

esskay 4y ago
Be careful what you wish for. Here in the UK since leaving the government have been doing all they can to ensure mass surveilance and repression becomes more and more common, without those "pesky" EU laws stopping them.
- ecmascript 4y ago
  Yeah I know, sorry to hear that but: 1. It is way easier to change the minds of the people in your home country rather than in several countries. 2. My country of birth, Sweden, has more history of rejecting stuff like that.
  - msm_ 4y ago
    Can your country of birth lobby in the EU to stop laws like this?
    - ecmascript 4y ago
      Honestly, I would believe some of them already do it. You're reading the news from a Swedish company anyway so we use to be pretty vigilant on privacy issues. Sweden is a small player compared to Germany and France, so I am uncertain how much weight our words have.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - daenney 4y ago
        > You're reading the news from a Swedish company anyway so we use to be pretty vigilant on privacy issues. But the issue they're raising is that the issue isn't being reported and examined by others and especially not journalists who are best placed to raise wider awareness of this.
      - msm_ 4y ago
        The article we're commenting on paints a quite different picture: > When the NDRE law was implemented in 2008, the Director-General (...) wrote that "there is this idea that the NDRE is going to listen to all Swedes' phone calls and read their e-mails and text messages. A disgusting thought. How can so many people believe that a democratically elected parliament would treat its people so badly?" > However, 13 years later, in May 2021, Sweden was found by the European Court of Human Rights to have violated personal privacy due to the NDRE law. The Swedish government was urged to immediately correct these problems of legal uncertainty. Instead, however, the parliament did the exact opposite: they voted to extend the NDRE law in November 2021. In fact, it's completely opposite - Swedish government is trying hard to spy on their citizen, and the EU is trying[1] to stop that. [1] By sending strongly worded letters, and fails to achieve anything. There goes the idea that EU is some kind of a totalitarian dictatorships that forces countries to do what it wants.
  - daenney 4y ago
    > 2. My country of birth, Sweden, has more history of rejecting stuff like that. You might want to check the article as to Swedes and Sweden's involvement in the drafting of this in the first place. And the NDRE is another thing which the country happily introduced and expanded upon. As far as mass surveillance of populations go, Sweden's not on the side of protecting privacy.
TheFattestNinja 4y ago
Brexit happened and I'm not sure the UK tech law landscape on these topics is a lot more reassuring. But who knows.
- 988747 4y ago
  Actually, seems like one of the reasons for Brexit was ability to do even more surveillance and other totalitarian practices without EU interfering. Not surprising given the fact that UK is one of the Five Eyes.
  - jiriknesl 4y ago
    Do you have proof for such a claim?
    - ben_w 4y ago
      "Seems like" doesn't need proof, it is clearly opinion. "the fact that UK is one of the Five Eyes" is attested to on the NSA's own domain: https://www.nsa.gov/Helpful-Links/NSA-FOIA/Declassification-Transparency-Initiatives/Historical-Releases/UKUSA/ https://www.nsa.gov/Helpful-Links/NSA-FOIA/Declassification-... …although the "and that's bad" part of Five Eyes is tied to what Snowden released.
      - jiriknesl 4y ago
        The thing is. Brexit vote was a referendum, not a decision of "deep state" or whatever one might call it. And if you remember, there were two main topics surrounding Leave campaigns: 1. We pay to the EU more than we get - which was absolutely correct btw. 2. Anti-immigration sentiments - which is sad if that's a synonym for racism. At the same time, the UK has changed extremely in the past 7 decades. From a white Christian country with very distinctive culture became an extremely multicultural country with places where "natives" are a minority. I am pro-immigration and pro-multiculturalism, but I can understand why some people have an issue with such a quick change. I know OP is stating that as an opinion, but I don't think it is based on a knowledge of the UK reality and there would be very little evidence supporting it.
stinos 4y ago
I will immedietly vote for any politician willing to exit the EU Willing to exit EU might however be completely orthogonal to preferences regarding surveillance laws. I mean, such politician might just as well propose similar laws like Chat Control after the country leaves the EU. And looking at some of the specimens around here that would not even be unlikely.
- ecmascript 4y ago
  I don't understand how this is an argument for staying though, even if so many brings it up. It feels more or less impossible to influence EU-politicians. I don't know who they are, what they do or barely how the EU system works. It is too complicated for laymen to get into in general. If a local politician proposes a stupid law as this one, I can call them up on my phone while when EU does it you don't even know it's happening.
  - tokai 4y ago
    >I don't know who they are, what they do It is extremely easy to find out. You even had an election where you voted for one of them (if you showed up for the vote). Here you go [0]. Start sending them emails about this. [0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/search/advanced?countryCode=SE https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/search/advanced?count...
    - ecmascript 4y ago
      Sorry for the late reply but HN didn't allow me posting it before. I did send them an email. Only one replied.
      - tokai 4y ago
        Great
  - stinos 4y ago
    I don't understand how this is an argument for staying though, even if so many brings it up. I did not intend to use this as such argument. Wrt not being able to even reach EU-politicians: that's a bit far fetched, no? Maybe you don't know who they are but it's easy enough to look that up, for my country the first hit is spot on and the second one is a Wikipedia entry saying the same. Likewise for questions like 'how does EU parliament work'.
maxehmookau 4y ago
EU commissioners propose laws, they don't vote for them. The EU parliament will probably reject this. As a brit, let me tell you that leaving the EU will not solve this problem. Your local politicians will just do that anyway.
- ecmascript 4y ago
  I do not think so, Swedens population has a history of rejecting mass surveillance ideas and lot's of privacy advocating stuff has come from Sweden like Mullvad and The Pirate Bay. Anyway, it is way easier for a citizen to affect your local politician rather than some other random countries politicians that don't care about you.
  - supermatt 4y ago
    > Swedens population has a history of rejecting mass surveillance ideas What about the Swedish NDRE, which was found by the ECHR to violate personal privacy, and when urged to correct it they instead extended it? (as per the article).
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    Sweden has one of the most comprehensive mass surveillance systems in the world. In short, the military is allowed to do mass surveillance on all communications within the borders of the country. Sweden is somewhere near the bottom of the list among countries worldwide when it comes to respecting online privacy of citizens.
- miohtama 4y ago
  Even if the EU parliament passes a neutered bill, it is going to be lose. Some politicians seem to have inane will (and lobby money) to pass these laws no matter what, including in bit by bit in smaller pieces and partial defeats.
- jiriknesl 4y ago
  Yes, but it's easier to influence politicians in your country than in the EU. It's easier to influence politicians in your county council than in your country. It's easier to influence politicians in your town hall than in your county council.
zx85wes 4y ago
I'm pro decentralisation too. The eurosceptic parties I know are all in favour of more surveillance. Pick your poison. ;-)

esskay 4y ago

Be careful what you wish for. Here in the UK since leaving the government have been doing all they can to ensure mass surveilance and repression becomes more and more common, without those "pesky" EU laws stopping them.

ecmascript 4y ago
Yeah I know, sorry to hear that but: 1. It is way easier to change the minds of the people in your home country rather than in several countries. 2. My country of birth, Sweden, has more history of rejecting stuff like that.
- msm_ 4y ago
  Can your country of birth lobby in the EU to stop laws like this?
  - ecmascript 4y ago
    Honestly, I would believe some of them already do it. You're reading the news from a Swedish company anyway so we use to be pretty vigilant on privacy issues. Sweden is a small player compared to Germany and France, so I am uncertain how much weight our words have.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - daenney 4y ago
      > You're reading the news from a Swedish company anyway so we use to be pretty vigilant on privacy issues. But the issue they're raising is that the issue isn't being reported and examined by others and especially not journalists who are best placed to raise wider awareness of this.
    - msm_ 4y ago
      The article we're commenting on paints a quite different picture: > When the NDRE law was implemented in 2008, the Director-General (...) wrote that "there is this idea that the NDRE is going to listen to all Swedes' phone calls and read their e-mails and text messages. A disgusting thought. How can so many people believe that a democratically elected parliament would treat its people so badly?" > However, 13 years later, in May 2021, Sweden was found by the European Court of Human Rights to have violated personal privacy due to the NDRE law. The Swedish government was urged to immediately correct these problems of legal uncertainty. Instead, however, the parliament did the exact opposite: they voted to extend the NDRE law in November 2021. In fact, it's completely opposite - Swedish government is trying hard to spy on their citizen, and the EU is trying[1] to stop that. [1] By sending strongly worded letters, and fails to achieve anything. There goes the idea that EU is some kind of a totalitarian dictatorships that forces countries to do what it wants.
- daenney 4y ago
  > 2. My country of birth, Sweden, has more history of rejecting stuff like that. You might want to check the article as to Swedes and Sweden's involvement in the drafting of this in the first place. And the NDRE is another thing which the country happily introduced and expanded upon. As far as mass surveillance of populations go, Sweden's not on the side of protecting privacy.

TheFattestNinja 4y ago

Brexit happened and I'm not sure the UK tech law landscape on these topics is a lot more reassuring. But who knows.

988747 4y ago
Actually, seems like one of the reasons for Brexit was ability to do even more surveillance and other totalitarian practices without EU interfering. Not surprising given the fact that UK is one of the Five Eyes.
- jiriknesl 4y ago
  Do you have proof for such a claim?
  - ben_w 4y ago
    "Seems like" doesn't need proof, it is clearly opinion. "the fact that UK is one of the Five Eyes" is attested to on the NSA's own domain: https://www.nsa.gov/Helpful-Links/NSA-FOIA/Declassification-Transparency-Initiatives/Historical-Releases/UKUSA/ https://www.nsa.gov/Helpful-Links/NSA-FOIA/Declassification-... …although the "and that's bad" part of Five Eyes is tied to what Snowden released.
    - jiriknesl 4y ago
      The thing is. Brexit vote was a referendum, not a decision of "deep state" or whatever one might call it. And if you remember, there were two main topics surrounding Leave campaigns: 1. We pay to the EU more than we get - which was absolutely correct btw. 2. Anti-immigration sentiments - which is sad if that's a synonym for racism. At the same time, the UK has changed extremely in the past 7 decades. From a white Christian country with very distinctive culture became an extremely multicultural country with places where "natives" are a minority. I am pro-immigration and pro-multiculturalism, but I can understand why some people have an issue with such a quick change. I know OP is stating that as an opinion, but I don't think it is based on a knowledge of the UK reality and there would be very little evidence supporting it.

stinos 4y ago

I will immedietly vote for any politician willing to exit the EU Willing to exit EU might however be completely orthogonal to preferences regarding surveillance laws. I mean, such politician might just as well propose similar laws like Chat Control after the country leaves the EU. And looking at some of the specimens around here that would not even be unlikely.

ecmascript 4y ago
I don't understand how this is an argument for staying though, even if so many brings it up. It feels more or less impossible to influence EU-politicians. I don't know who they are, what they do or barely how the EU system works. It is too complicated for laymen to get into in general. If a local politician proposes a stupid law as this one, I can call them up on my phone while when EU does it you don't even know it's happening.
- tokai 4y ago
  >I don't know who they are, what they do It is extremely easy to find out. You even had an election where you voted for one of them (if you showed up for the vote). Here you go [0]. Start sending them emails about this. [0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/search/advanced?countryCode=SE https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/search/advanced?count...
  - ecmascript 4y ago
    Sorry for the late reply but HN didn't allow me posting it before. I did send them an email. Only one replied.
    - tokai 4y ago
      Great
- stinos 4y ago
  I don't understand how this is an argument for staying though, even if so many brings it up. I did not intend to use this as such argument. Wrt not being able to even reach EU-politicians: that's a bit far fetched, no? Maybe you don't know who they are but it's easy enough to look that up, for my country the first hit is spot on and the second one is a Wikipedia entry saying the same. Likewise for questions like 'how does EU parliament work'.

maxehmookau 4y ago

EU commissioners propose laws, they don't vote for them. The EU parliament will probably reject this. As a brit, let me tell you that leaving the EU will not solve this problem. Your local politicians will just do that anyway.

ecmascript 4y ago
I do not think so, Swedens population has a history of rejecting mass surveillance ideas and lot's of privacy advocating stuff has come from Sweden like Mullvad and The Pirate Bay. Anyway, it is way easier for a citizen to affect your local politician rather than some other random countries politicians that don't care about you.
- supermatt 4y ago
  > Swedens population has a history of rejecting mass surveillance ideas What about the Swedish NDRE, which was found by the ECHR to violate personal privacy, and when urged to correct it they instead extended it? (as per the article).
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  Sweden has one of the most comprehensive mass surveillance systems in the world. In short, the military is allowed to do mass surveillance on all communications within the borders of the country. Sweden is somewhere near the bottom of the list among countries worldwide when it comes to respecting online privacy of citizens.
miohtama 4y ago
Even if the EU parliament passes a neutered bill, it is going to be lose. Some politicians seem to have inane will (and lobby money) to pass these laws no matter what, including in bit by bit in smaller pieces and partial defeats.
jiriknesl 4y ago
Yes, but it's easier to influence politicians in your country than in the EU. It's easier to influence politicians in your county council than in your country. It's easier to influence politicians in your town hall than in your county council.

zx85wes 4y ago

I'm pro decentralisation too. The eurosceptic parties I know are all in favour of more surveillance. Pick your poison. ;-)