3 ms·

It's because they aren't accountable to anyone.

giantg2 4y ago
Also, most of what they do is under threat of authority, not actual authority. For the most part, they need a court order to enter your home, question your children without your permission, etc. Hopefully if more people realize they have the right to say no, then the worker will be a little more reasonable. Right now they know that everyone they meet bends to their threats and nobody challenges them, so they are emboldened.
- nullc 4y ago
  Demanding that court order can work out extremely poorly for you.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    It goes one of two ways. One is that they don't have probable cause that abuse has occurred and nothing happens. Police dropping the charges seem to support this for this scenario. The other is that they do get the order and you have the same situation of visits and questions.
    - nullc 4y ago
      I had a friend who had a false report made against her by her husbands ex-wife to Florida DCF after they refused to babysit the ex-wifes' profoundly disabled child (by her new husband) while the ex-wife went out partying. A social worker showed up demanding to enter my friends home. My friend was a paralegal and was aware of her rights and told the social worker to come back with a warrant if she wanted to enter the home. No doubt extremely offended about the false report, I'm sure she was not polite about it. The worker contacted the sheriffs office and they got a judge to sign off on an emergency order by saying the lives of the children were at risk. The social worker returned with multiple law enforcement officers who broke down the door of the home, entered with with guns drawn, terrorizing her children, cuffed and arrested her. No charges were filed. The worker continually harassed my friend for most of a year with numerous additional incidents before the friend was able to obtain a court order barring Florida DCF from contacting her or her family, and restraining the worker from contact specifically. You could say that eventually she "won", but it's was a hollow victory in that it came at a cost she couldn't really afford and caused harm for which there could be no compensation. There are rights you have on paper and then there are the actual consequences in reality if you try to stand up for them. When you're facing a petty dictator with almost complete power over your life and almost no accountability for their actions it can be pragmatic to play along and not risk inspiring a vendetta.
      - notch898a 4y ago
        Your friend saved a lot of other parents during that time. Thankfully I have not been terrorized by DCS but having been terrorized by police, I at least knew standing up for my rights meant those police were tied up with me for hours to days on end rather than terrorizing dozens of push-overs in the same time. I had a scenario recently where two tyrants were forced to babysit me for almost a full day, which meant that probably 200 push-overs who could be worked over in 15 minutes each were saved thanks to my standing up for my rights. When everyone invokes their rights the system locks up.
        giantg2 4y ago
        This sounds like notch556. Is there a reason you're using a different name? Did your previous account get banned by @dang?
        notch898a 4y ago
        I have a habit of speaking with a bit too much liberty for the taste of HN :P
      - giantg2 4y ago
        Did the social worker lose their job? It sounds like if they had multiple issues and there was a restraining order, then they should have. If so, they removed one abusive social worker. Without that, that social worker would continue to do similar things to others. I'm guessing the emergency order was granted without supporting evidence (ie illegally by the social worker made things up). Also, there's a big difference in how you invoke those rights. If you get aggressive, that can be a problem. Probably the best thing to do is ask for their card, say that you want to help and that you'll have your attorney contact them. If there's a claim of immediate danger, a quick show of your kids being happy and unharmed should suffice. The main point is, if everyone just rolls over, these abuses and terrible bureaucrats will not be uncovered. The system will never improve unless people hear about these abuses. That itself is highly valuable, even if the personal cost is high.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    I mean maybe? I had a court order served against me for something non-child related. The order was obvious bullshit. The drones involved in executing it were gnashing at the teeth to do what it said but by the time they were delayed hours getting the judge to approve it, their gusto was gone and they started pondering their own precarious legal situation when they would inevitably find what they did was bullshit and unjustified and they'd be looking at a massive lawsuit. They were smart not to too, because I'm quite certain they would have found nothing and counsel I would later invoke would uncover the warrant was not obtained in a legal manner. It got them to back off even though they had the order in hand with the judge's signature.
- oh_sigh 4y ago
  Right. I don't want to blame the parents, but all they had to do was deny the case workers entry and an interview, and say come back with a warrant or when my attorney is present. That would have saved a lot of headache and been well within their rights.

Also, most of what they do is under threat of authority, not actual authority. For the most part, they need a court order to enter your home, question your children without your permission, etc. Hopefully if more people realize they have the right to say no, then the worker will be a little more reasonable. Right now they know that everyone they meet bends to their threats and nobody challenges them, so they are emboldened.

nullc 4y ago
Demanding that court order can work out extremely poorly for you.
- giantg2 4y ago
  It goes one of two ways. One is that they don't have probable cause that abuse has occurred and nothing happens. Police dropping the charges seem to support this for this scenario. The other is that they do get the order and you have the same situation of visits and questions.
  - nullc 4y ago
    I had a friend who had a false report made against her by her husbands ex-wife to Florida DCF after they refused to babysit the ex-wifes' profoundly disabled child (by her new husband) while the ex-wife went out partying. A social worker showed up demanding to enter my friends home. My friend was a paralegal and was aware of her rights and told the social worker to come back with a warrant if she wanted to enter the home. No doubt extremely offended about the false report, I'm sure she was not polite about it. The worker contacted the sheriffs office and they got a judge to sign off on an emergency order by saying the lives of the children were at risk. The social worker returned with multiple law enforcement officers who broke down the door of the home, entered with with guns drawn, terrorizing her children, cuffed and arrested her. No charges were filed. The worker continually harassed my friend for most of a year with numerous additional incidents before the friend was able to obtain a court order barring Florida DCF from contacting her or her family, and restraining the worker from contact specifically. You could say that eventually she "won", but it's was a hollow victory in that it came at a cost she couldn't really afford and caused harm for which there could be no compensation. There are rights you have on paper and then there are the actual consequences in reality if you try to stand up for them. When you're facing a petty dictator with almost complete power over your life and almost no accountability for their actions it can be pragmatic to play along and not risk inspiring a vendetta.
    - notch898a 4y ago
      Your friend saved a lot of other parents during that time. Thankfully I have not been terrorized by DCS but having been terrorized by police, I at least knew standing up for my rights meant those police were tied up with me for hours to days on end rather than terrorizing dozens of push-overs in the same time. I had a scenario recently where two tyrants were forced to babysit me for almost a full day, which meant that probably 200 push-overs who could be worked over in 15 minutes each were saved thanks to my standing up for my rights. When everyone invokes their rights the system locks up.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        This sounds like notch556. Is there a reason you're using a different name? Did your previous account get banned by @dang?
        notch898a 4y ago
        I have a habit of speaking with a bit too much liberty for the taste of HN :P
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Did the social worker lose their job? It sounds like if they had multiple issues and there was a restraining order, then they should have. If so, they removed one abusive social worker. Without that, that social worker would continue to do similar things to others. I'm guessing the emergency order was granted without supporting evidence (ie illegally by the social worker made things up). Also, there's a big difference in how you invoke those rights. If you get aggressive, that can be a problem. Probably the best thing to do is ask for their card, say that you want to help and that you'll have your attorney contact them. If there's a claim of immediate danger, a quick show of your kids being happy and unharmed should suffice. The main point is, if everyone just rolls over, these abuses and terrible bureaucrats will not be uncovered. The system will never improve unless people hear about these abuses. That itself is highly valuable, even if the personal cost is high.
- notch898a 4y ago
  I mean maybe? I had a court order served against me for something non-child related. The order was obvious bullshit. The drones involved in executing it were gnashing at the teeth to do what it said but by the time they were delayed hours getting the judge to approve it, their gusto was gone and they started pondering their own precarious legal situation when they would inevitably find what they did was bullshit and unjustified and they'd be looking at a massive lawsuit. They were smart not to too, because I'm quite certain they would have found nothing and counsel I would later invoke would uncover the warrant was not obtained in a legal manner. It got them to back off even though they had the order in hand with the judge's signature.
oh_sigh 4y ago
Right. I don't want to blame the parents, but all they had to do was deny the case workers entry and an interview, and say come back with a warrant or when my attorney is present. That would have saved a lot of headache and been well within their rights.