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I found this figure: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Median_personal_income_after_taxes.webp https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/

by mort96 4y ago

I found this figure: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Median_personal_income_after_taxes.webp https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Median_p... (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...). The individual median net income was $19k around 2005-2006, maybe they were just using outdated numbers? Or it could've been a typo or misreading, as the current median net income is $29k. In any case, their point still stands with the $29k figure.

endominus 4y ago
The first paragraph of that Wikipedia page: "Personal income is an individual's total earnings from wages, investment interest, and other sources. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported a median weekly personal income of $1,037 for full-time workers in Q1 2022. For the year 2020, the U.S. Census Bureau estimates that the median annual earnings for all workers (aged 15 and over) was $41,535; and more specifically estimates that median annual earnings for those who worked full-time, year round, was $56,287." That graph seems to be just incorrect. All three of the links it's supposedly sourced from don't have it on their pages. There is a remark of "own work," so I think a Wikipedian assembled it themself. Given that it frankly contradicts the article it's in, I would assume that it's in error.
- mort96 4y ago
  The graph would be consistent with the part you quoted if the median earners were paying 33.5% tax: 41535 - (41535 * 0.335) is roughly the 27598 figure it shows for 2020. The figure only shows state and federal income tax, which adds up to 13% tax; I don't know enough about the US to now if there are other taxes which would add up to 33.5%.
  - endominus 4y ago
    The graph includes state, federal, and payroll tax. They're stacked above the income after tax. They do not add up to $41,535.
    - mort96 4y ago
      I ignored the payroll tax, because I assumed that's not counted as part of the employee's gross income? And I agree that neither income tax nor income + payroll tax adds up to the 33.5%. I don't know if there are more taxes which need to be considered. 13% total tax seems low.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > I ignored the payroll tax, because I assumed that's not counted as part of the employee's gross income Employee share of payroll tax is, employer share (which is shown reaching down from the bottom) is not. > 13% total tax seems low. Given what I've actually paid with a far above median income, 13% soubds reasonable. Its low as a nominal rate, but there are lots of credits and deductions available, and the before-tax median personal income is well below the cutoff for EITC, which can be a huge one. Heck, a large minority of the population pays zero or negative net income tax.
mlyle 4y ago
> In any case, their point still stands with the $29k figure. Comparing comp for two people who are working really hard, doesn't really work when you're comparing to a median income that includes lots of people who don't work or don't really work. Similarly, comparing median net income (which includes taxation) with a pre-tax windfall doesn't really make sense, either. Further, we're not adjusting for time value of money...
- weknowbetter 4y ago
  Anecdotally I know a lot of people who work full time in the US and make well under 30k a year.
  - HEmanZ 4y ago
    And for every one making under 30k per year there is one making over 80k per year. And, very interestingly and more nuanced, you can take into account how a person changes over time. For example, while I was a grad student, I worked full time and definitely fell under the poverty line. But would you really consider me a poor/destitute person? About 60% of Americans break into the top 20% of household income at some point in their lives(>$110k/yr). In the same vein, almost 20% of Americans will earn less than the poverty rate at some point in their lives ($24k/yr). Like I said, I think Americans have many problems, but if there is one thing we are good at it is income (and the consumption that comes with it). https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/05/308380342/most-americans-make-it-to-the-top-20-percent-at-least-for-a-while https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/05/308380342/most...
  - mlyle 4y ago
    Yup... half the people will be below the median.

by mort96 4y ago

endominus 4y ago

The first paragraph of that Wikipedia page: "Personal income is an individual's total earnings from wages, investment interest, and other sources. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported a median weekly personal income of $1,037 for full-time workers in Q1 2022. For the year 2020, the U.S. Census Bureau estimates that the median annual earnings for all workers (aged 15 and over) was $41,535; and more specifically estimates that median annual earnings for those who worked full-time, year round, was $56,287." That graph seems to be just incorrect. All three of the links it's supposedly sourced from don't have it on their pages. There is a remark of "own work," so I think a Wikipedian assembled it themself. Given that it frankly contradicts the article it's in, I would assume that it's in error.

mort96 4y ago
The graph would be consistent with the part you quoted if the median earners were paying 33.5% tax: 41535 - (41535 * 0.335) is roughly the 27598 figure it shows for 2020. The figure only shows state and federal income tax, which adds up to 13% tax; I don't know enough about the US to now if there are other taxes which would add up to 33.5%.
- endominus 4y ago
  The graph includes state, federal, and payroll tax. They're stacked above the income after tax. They do not add up to $41,535.
  - mort96 4y ago
    I ignored the payroll tax, because I assumed that's not counted as part of the employee's gross income? And I agree that neither income tax nor income + payroll tax adds up to the 33.5%. I don't know if there are more taxes which need to be considered. 13% total tax seems low.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > I ignored the payroll tax, because I assumed that's not counted as part of the employee's gross income Employee share of payroll tax is, employer share (which is shown reaching down from the bottom) is not. > 13% total tax seems low. Given what I've actually paid with a far above median income, 13% soubds reasonable. Its low as a nominal rate, but there are lots of credits and deductions available, and the before-tax median personal income is well below the cutoff for EITC, which can be a huge one. Heck, a large minority of the population pays zero or negative net income tax.

mlyle 4y ago

> In any case, their point still stands with the $29k figure. Comparing comp for two people who are working really hard, doesn't really work when you're comparing to a median income that includes lots of people who don't work or don't really work. Similarly, comparing median net income (which includes taxation) with a pre-tax windfall doesn't really make sense, either. Further, we're not adjusting for time value of money...

weknowbetter 4y ago
Anecdotally I know a lot of people who work full time in the US and make well under 30k a year.
- HEmanZ 4y ago
  And for every one making under 30k per year there is one making over 80k per year. And, very interestingly and more nuanced, you can take into account how a person changes over time. For example, while I was a grad student, I worked full time and definitely fell under the poverty line. But would you really consider me a poor/destitute person? About 60% of Americans break into the top 20% of household income at some point in their lives(>$110k/yr). In the same vein, almost 20% of Americans will earn less than the poverty rate at some point in their lives ($24k/yr). Like I said, I think Americans have many problems, but if there is one thing we are good at it is income (and the consumption that comes with it). https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/05/308380342/most-americans-make-it-to-the-top-20-percent-at-least-for-a-while https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/05/308380342/most...
- mlyle 4y ago
  Yup... half the people will be below the median.