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More recently (August 2021), the option of German citizenship has been extended to descendants of people who were deprived German citizenship due to gender disc

More recently (August 2021), the option of German citizenship has been extended to descendants of people who were deprived German citizenship due to gender discrimination in the law that was in effect at the time. For example, until 1975, the children of married parents would only be German if the father was German. Furthermore, if your ancestors left Germany after 1904 and had children in the United States before naturalizing as American citizens, you may be already a German citizen even without knowing it. A reddit dedicated to these topics and more: https://www.reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship https://www.reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship

opportune 4y ago
Can you explain the part about being a citizen if you have ancestors after 1904? What other criteria are there? From some quick searching I don’t see this mentioned explicitly anywhere. Is the argument that your great grandparent’s (immigrant from Germany in let’s say 1901) children, per the current naturalization rules, were a citizen, and thus your grandparent, thus parent, and thus you? Since the citizenship requirements don’t mention it, is this something that would actually hold up?
- techsupporter 4y ago
  > being a citizen if you have ancestors after 1904? Prior to a 1914 change in the nationality law, a German citizen lost citizenship if they lived outside of Germany for more than 10 years and didn't file to retain citizenship. The general case is thus "after 1904." Other common criteria are that the chain of citizenship is unbroken, that no parent naturalized elsewhere (also a loss of citizenship without permission to retain) prior to the child being born and no voluntary military service (with some exceptions for EU and NATO depending on year).
  - opportune 4y ago
    I see, that explains why I kept seeing 1914 when researching. I just thought OP might have made a typo in the year I knew one of my great grandparents was born in Germany, but after some digging it turns out they emigrated as a toddler well before the cutoff, so no EU passport for me. I was surprised to learn that their family came over in multiple ships in the span of a few years. And also at how many dark patterns genealogy websites use to try to get you to pay! Pro tip for anybody also interested: there are free sites for genealogy although their SEO is often poor, and they use clunky interfaces from like 15 years ago. Often operated by governments and perfectly capable of describing in words how to manually do a join, but incapable of automatically doing a join. I found aad.archives.gov useful for Ellis Island records - if you search the manifest id from a record you can see the ship name, source, and year. And you can filter by last name + manifest id if you find what seems like partial data (the person you think is missing may have had their name recorded differently). There is some German emigration data also available but as you might expect it’s pretty patchy - nonetheless I was still able to find my great grandparent in their polity’s emigrant records.
- tapatio 4y ago
  https://www.germany.info/us-en/service/03-Citizenship/german-citizenship-obtain/919576 https://www.germany.info/us-en/service/03-Citizenship/german...
robga 4y ago
The UK introduced laws last year that are also on the theme of gender discrimination and righting the consequence of deprivation of rights in previous generations [0]. It was only about 5 years ago that rights afforded by matrilineal descent were brought in line with patrilineal descent. [0] https://freemovement.org.uk/claiming-british-citizenship-through-an-grandparent-in-cases/ https://freemovement.org.uk/claiming-british-citizenship-thr...
- fmajid 4y ago
  The most famous example is Winston Churchill, whose mother was American, but under the laws of the time US nationality could only be passed on by the father.
- opportune 4y ago
  Israel’s Law of Return stills favor matrilineal descent (because of halakhic law) even though it is partially open to patrilineal descent now. Also you lose the Law of Return even if you have 100% Jewish ancestry but officially convert to a different religion. It’s to be expected somewhat, but the way Israel mixes religion and policy creates a ton of complexity. Just look up how marriages work.
  - josh_fyi 4y ago
    The Law of Return does not distinguish patrilineal from matrilineal descent. Indeed, most such immigrants are not Jewish by religious law, even if ethnically they have that connection.
    - opportune 4y ago
      My understanding of the Law of Return is that matrilineally you can prove Jewishness by going arbitrarily far back on the female line, but that patrilineally (or otherwise not fully matrilineally) you can only go back as far as your grandparents. That’s consistent with it probably not affecting most people + still allowing for people who do not meet the traditional religious criteria to exercise the Law of Return, but not the same as the treatments being the same. According to my understanding, if for example my great grandfather was Jewish, but married to a Catholic, and raised their son (my grandfather) as a Catholic, who then was for all intents and purposes a fully practicing Catholic thus raising my parent the same way, I wouldn’t be eligible for the law of return. But if I could show my mother’s mother’s mother’s … mother was Jewish I would be eligible, even if this is more than 2 generations. For most people raised Jewish I doubt it matters much but it does change things a lot for people of mixed Jewish ancestry whose parents/grandparents were not practicing. Which is a pretty decent number of people in the US and former Soviet Union
mensetmanusman 4y ago
Germany is in the same demographic bucket as Japan, not a surprise they would do as much as possible to attract people back.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Germany does this with Russians of German decent all the way back to the 50s, demographics have not a lot to do with that.
  - rjsw 4y ago
    A former part of Germany is now part of Russia.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Come again? The Russian of German decent go back to the days of the Czar...
      - rjsw 4y ago
        Kalingrad [1] used to be part of Prussia. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad
        hef19898 4y ago
        Ah, so pre-WW2 then... And for the most time part of the German Empire / Prussia. A nationish state that doesn't exist anymore for more than 100 years. And then it was conquered by the USSR during WW2, which was started by whom again? Anyway, what does this have to do with Russias invasion of Ukraine again?
        tobinfricke 4y ago
        Yes but I think the German population was almost entirely driven out.
nomurrcy 4y ago
I hope Austria will make a similar change. Children born before 1983 only acquired citizenship if their father was Austrian or they were born out of wedlock to a single mother. When they changed the law in 1983 it was not made retroactive - so many half Austrian children are left with no legal connection to the country.
- em-bee 4y ago
  are you sure? a friend of mine born in 1973 has both austrian and german citizenships. which in itself is a fluke because neither country recognises dual citizenships. but with such a law in effect it should not have been possible to get the mothers citizenship from either country.
  - nomurrcy 4y ago
    Yes, I'm sure. Is is father or mother Austrian? There was a period in 2014 wherein children affected by this law were allowed to apply for Austrian citizenship - perhaps he took advantage of that. There has also been a recent change for descendants of holocaust survivors. I'm not sure about the german side of the equation. See 'Obtaining Austrian Citizenship' here: https://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/austrian-embassy-london/service-for-citizens/identity-papers-and-other-documents/citizenship-certificate/ https://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/austrian-embassy-london/service-f...
    - em-bee 4y ago
      i just learned that in 1983 when the law was changed, austrian mothers were offered to apply for austrian citizenship for their children born earlier. so if it wasn't made permanently retroactive, there was at least a time window to apply which is likely what my friend was able to take advantage of.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      i don't know which parent is austrian. my friend has both citizenships at least since their youth in the 80s. so whatever allowed that to happen must have been something in effect then. maybe a different temporary exception on either the german or austrian side.

opportune 4y ago

Can you explain the part about being a citizen if you have ancestors after 1904? What other criteria are there? From some quick searching I don’t see this mentioned explicitly anywhere. Is the argument that your great grandparent’s (immigrant from Germany in let’s say 1901) children, per the current naturalization rules, were a citizen, and thus your grandparent, thus parent, and thus you? Since the citizenship requirements don’t mention it, is this something that would actually hold up?

techsupporter 4y ago
> being a citizen if you have ancestors after 1904? Prior to a 1914 change in the nationality law, a German citizen lost citizenship if they lived outside of Germany for more than 10 years and didn't file to retain citizenship. The general case is thus "after 1904." Other common criteria are that the chain of citizenship is unbroken, that no parent naturalized elsewhere (also a loss of citizenship without permission to retain) prior to the child being born and no voluntary military service (with some exceptions for EU and NATO depending on year).
- opportune 4y ago
  I see, that explains why I kept seeing 1914 when researching. I just thought OP might have made a typo in the year I knew one of my great grandparents was born in Germany, but after some digging it turns out they emigrated as a toddler well before the cutoff, so no EU passport for me. I was surprised to learn that their family came over in multiple ships in the span of a few years. And also at how many dark patterns genealogy websites use to try to get you to pay! Pro tip for anybody also interested: there are free sites for genealogy although their SEO is often poor, and they use clunky interfaces from like 15 years ago. Often operated by governments and perfectly capable of describing in words how to manually do a join, but incapable of automatically doing a join. I found aad.archives.gov useful for Ellis Island records - if you search the manifest id from a record you can see the ship name, source, and year. And you can filter by last name + manifest id if you find what seems like partial data (the person you think is missing may have had their name recorded differently). There is some German emigration data also available but as you might expect it’s pretty patchy - nonetheless I was still able to find my great grandparent in their polity’s emigrant records.
tapatio 4y ago
https://www.germany.info/us-en/service/03-Citizenship/german-citizenship-obtain/919576 https://www.germany.info/us-en/service/03-Citizenship/german...

robga 4y ago

The UK introduced laws last year that are also on the theme of gender discrimination and righting the consequence of deprivation of rights in previous generations [0]. It was only about 5 years ago that rights afforded by matrilineal descent were brought in line with patrilineal descent. [0] https://freemovement.org.uk/claiming-british-citizenship-through-an-grandparent-in-cases/ https://freemovement.org.uk/claiming-british-citizenship-thr...

fmajid 4y ago
The most famous example is Winston Churchill, whose mother was American, but under the laws of the time US nationality could only be passed on by the father.
opportune 4y ago
Israel’s Law of Return stills favor matrilineal descent (because of halakhic law) even though it is partially open to patrilineal descent now. Also you lose the Law of Return even if you have 100% Jewish ancestry but officially convert to a different religion. It’s to be expected somewhat, but the way Israel mixes religion and policy creates a ton of complexity. Just look up how marriages work.
- josh_fyi 4y ago
  The Law of Return does not distinguish patrilineal from matrilineal descent. Indeed, most such immigrants are not Jewish by religious law, even if ethnically they have that connection.
  - opportune 4y ago
    My understanding of the Law of Return is that matrilineally you can prove Jewishness by going arbitrarily far back on the female line, but that patrilineally (or otherwise not fully matrilineally) you can only go back as far as your grandparents. That’s consistent with it probably not affecting most people + still allowing for people who do not meet the traditional religious criteria to exercise the Law of Return, but not the same as the treatments being the same. According to my understanding, if for example my great grandfather was Jewish, but married to a Catholic, and raised their son (my grandfather) as a Catholic, who then was for all intents and purposes a fully practicing Catholic thus raising my parent the same way, I wouldn’t be eligible for the law of return. But if I could show my mother’s mother’s mother’s … mother was Jewish I would be eligible, even if this is more than 2 generations. For most people raised Jewish I doubt it matters much but it does change things a lot for people of mixed Jewish ancestry whose parents/grandparents were not practicing. Which is a pretty decent number of people in the US and former Soviet Union

mensetmanusman 4y ago

Germany is in the same demographic bucket as Japan, not a surprise they would do as much as possible to attract people back.

hef19898 4y ago
Germany does this with Russians of German decent all the way back to the 50s, demographics have not a lot to do with that.
- rjsw 4y ago
  A former part of Germany is now part of Russia.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Come again? The Russian of German decent go back to the days of the Czar...
    - rjsw 4y ago
      Kalingrad [1] used to be part of Prussia. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Ah, so pre-WW2 then... And for the most time part of the German Empire / Prussia. A nationish state that doesn't exist anymore for more than 100 years. And then it was conquered by the USSR during WW2, which was started by whom again? Anyway, what does this have to do with Russias invasion of Ukraine again?
      - tobinfricke 4y ago
        Yes but I think the German population was almost entirely driven out.

nomurrcy 4y ago

I hope Austria will make a similar change. Children born before 1983 only acquired citizenship if their father was Austrian or they were born out of wedlock to a single mother. When they changed the law in 1983 it was not made retroactive - so many half Austrian children are left with no legal connection to the country.

em-bee 4y ago
are you sure? a friend of mine born in 1973 has both austrian and german citizenships. which in itself is a fluke because neither country recognises dual citizenships. but with such a law in effect it should not have been possible to get the mothers citizenship from either country.
- nomurrcy 4y ago
  Yes, I'm sure. Is is father or mother Austrian? There was a period in 2014 wherein children affected by this law were allowed to apply for Austrian citizenship - perhaps he took advantage of that. There has also been a recent change for descendants of holocaust survivors. I'm not sure about the german side of the equation. See 'Obtaining Austrian Citizenship' here: https://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/austrian-embassy-london/service-for-citizens/identity-papers-and-other-documents/citizenship-certificate/ https://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/austrian-embassy-london/service-f...
  - em-bee 4y ago
    i just learned that in 1983 when the law was changed, austrian mothers were offered to apply for austrian citizenship for their children born earlier. so if it wasn't made permanently retroactive, there was at least a time window to apply which is likely what my friend was able to take advantage of.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    i don't know which parent is austrian. my friend has both citizenships at least since their youth in the 80s. so whatever allowed that to happen must have been something in effect then. maybe a different temporary exception on either the german or austrian side.