5 ms·

That's why we're building FossTeams [1], an open source client for Microsoft Teams (: The idea is to have a backend [2], powered by a library [3] that does the

That's why we're building FossTeams [1], an open source client for Microsoft Teams (: The idea is to have a backend [2], powered by a library [3] that does the heavy lifting and a / multiple frontends to be used with that (e.g: CLI[4], Web frontend[5], Flutter app[6]). We're looking for contributors! If you hate Teams and want to improve an Open Source version, PRs are welcome (: [1]: https://github.com/fossteams https://github.com/fossteams [2]: https://github.com/fossteams/fossteams-backend https://github.com/fossteams/fossteams-backend [3]: https://github.com/fossteams/teams-api https://github.com/fossteams/teams-api [4]: https://github.com/fossteams/teams-cli https://github.com/fossteams/teams-cli [5]: https://github.com/fossteams/fossteams-frontend https://github.com/fossteams/fossteams-frontend [6]: https://github.com/fossteams/fossteams_gui https://github.com/fossteams/fossteams_gui

csmpltn 4y ago
Honest question, asked in good faith. What's your plan when for when the "cease and desist" letter is going to come in?
- denysvitali 4y ago
  We'll see. We're doing nothing more than using undocumented APIs and in the end these clients are not competing against Microsoft Teams (but actually bringing / keeping more user base there). On top of that, we provide the code as MIT, so Microsoft can reuse the code for themselves. If they still send a cease and desist letter, we'll probably comply and make sure the code is archived somewhere for people to continue / use the project (: TL;DR: I would consider a cease and desist a success, and hope that Microsoft reuses the code
up2isomorphism 4y ago
I don’t think it can be really improved as long as Microsoft can sell this slow unstable piece of crap into all the big corporate by shameless bribing. I used to work in a big corporate, suddenly all teams has to change to MS team even the current software works just fine. I just decided to quit.
- denysvitali 4y ago
  That's why this uses the same client ID as Microsoft Teams and connects to the same backends. Don't get me wrong, the Teams servers aren't the fastest out there - but processing a 50 MB JSON with Javascript (well, Angular) is probably not needed at all if your goal is just to see a chat message. We do that heavy lifting on the server side (that anyways runs locally on your PC), so that the client can get the messages without all of the mess.
airtonix 4y ago
[dead]
azalemeth 4y ago
You're brilliant martyrs, but it's such a shame that Teams is just universally accepted as a new enterprise thing. I've never really seen such an anticompetitive move by Microsoft in the last decade, but Teams has taken on both Slack and Zoom and friends and they shove it "for free" down their enterprise customers' throats. It's crying out for a competition authority investigation and a compulsory breaking up -- not just a FOSS client.
- denysvitali 4y ago
  Of course, but in the meantime since we can't change the situation (me and others who have been forced to use Teams) you have to stop the bleeding for those who are truly suffering from M$ + Management's decisions
- epups 4y ago
  Can you elaborate on this point a bit? It seems to me that you are saying Microsoft should not be allowed to release their own version of Slack and Zoom for free. I don't see the argument for that, especially since Microsoft itself has in the past released free software that does essentially what these other tools also do, and largely inspired them (Skype, for example).
  - azalemeth 4y ago
    Sure. > It seems to me that you are saying Microsoft should not be allowed to release their own version of Slack and Zoom for free. That is exactly what I'm saying, because it is against EU competition law as Microsoft has a dominant position in the market -- the "plain English" guide to competition law simply states: [1] If your company has a large market share, it holds a dominant position and must take particular care not to: • charge unreasonably high prices which would exploit customers • charge unrealistically low prices which may drive competitors out of the market • discriminate between customers • force certain trading conditions on your business partners Microsoft does arguably all of these with different products to some level. Zoom, Slack, Discord etc are all paid-for products with a cost that, prior to February 2020, companies paid for separately. Microsoft then came along with Teams and released it as part of a certain tier of M365 subscription for free. Whilst Zoom and friends have not been driven out of the market, they have suffered as a result of it and what was a burgeoning industry, including with "freemium" or "paid support" FOSS models like Jitsi, have suffered as the corporate behemoths of the world use Teams. The real proof of the pudding is the fact that most users hate Teams: it's widely regarded as being not as good as its competitors and yet is massively used. Why? Monopolistic business practices. [1] https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competition-between-businesses/competition-rules-eu/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competit...
zorr 4y ago
What sets this project apart from the MS Graph API? Are there any API features that Graph does not have? I have built an alternative Teams client for smart glasses using only MS Graph and Azure Communication Services and it can already do most interactions related to chat/meetings/org etc.
- denysvitali 4y ago
  It's not using the MS Graph API and it's copying what the Teams Desktop client is doing. This gives you a way to run an alternative client in corporations where you don't have the possibility to use third party apps. On top of that, since it's not using the Graph API, we might get better features that will take long time to be available in the Graph API.
  - Firmwarrior 4y ago
    I think it's funny that casual hobbyists can easily outproduce Microsoft's supposedly world class engineering organization. It's not even a question in anyone's mind either. You guys know you're going to beat them (or already have), everyone here takes it as a given, even the engineers at MSFT probably know it. Even if they try to stop you guys, they probably won't be able to pull it off unless they can manage it in court
    - zorr 4y ago
      Why is that funny? I think it is normal that a hobby team working in a silo on an alternative client with a low amount of users move faster than a full engineering organization working on a mass rolled out product used in corporate environment all over the world. For a new feature the hobby team can just hack away for a few nights, push the release and they are done. The engineering org needs to plan and coordinate the feature across multiple teams (web app, desktop app, mobile app, Graph, teams admin panel, o365 admin panel,...) and then make sure it fits well into the rest of the MS infrastructure (policies, permission scopes, IT admin controls, licensing, auditing,...). Legal might need to be involved. And then after aligning all those teams and waiting for each team to prioritize and do the work it needs to get into the MS roadmap as well going through the usual stages (private preview, public preview, General Availability). And once it hits GA it needs to be supported for many years.
jbm 4y ago
I love you. Thank you for this.
JeremyNT 4y ago
I appreciate your efforts, because Teams is so terrible, but I'd love to avoid yet another chat application with its own UI. Pidgin is great for consolidating many of these walled garden chat services (e.g. Discord/Slack) into a unified UI, do you have any plans to develop a libpurple plugin?
- denysvitali 4y ago
  Once we have a solid base library, it can be included as a plugin everywhere. We've had already requests for a Weechat plugin [1], and Pidgin / Matrix are good candidates too. [1]: https://github.com/fossteams/teams-cli/issues/2 https://github.com/fossteams/teams-cli/issues/2

csmpltn 4y ago

Honest question, asked in good faith. What's your plan when for when the "cease and desist" letter is going to come in?

denysvitali 4y ago
We'll see. We're doing nothing more than using undocumented APIs and in the end these clients are not competing against Microsoft Teams (but actually bringing / keeping more user base there). On top of that, we provide the code as MIT, so Microsoft can reuse the code for themselves. If they still send a cease and desist letter, we'll probably comply and make sure the code is archived somewhere for people to continue / use the project (: TL;DR: I would consider a cease and desist a success, and hope that Microsoft reuses the code

up2isomorphism 4y ago

I don’t think it can be really improved as long as Microsoft can sell this slow unstable piece of crap into all the big corporate by shameless bribing. I used to work in a big corporate, suddenly all teams has to change to MS team even the current software works just fine. I just decided to quit.

denysvitali 4y ago
That's why this uses the same client ID as Microsoft Teams and connects to the same backends. Don't get me wrong, the Teams servers aren't the fastest out there - but processing a 50 MB JSON with Javascript (well, Angular) is probably not needed at all if your goal is just to see a chat message. We do that heavy lifting on the server side (that anyways runs locally on your PC), so that the client can get the messages without all of the mess.

airtonix 4y ago

[dead]

azalemeth 4y ago

You're brilliant martyrs, but it's such a shame that Teams is just universally accepted as a new enterprise thing. I've never really seen such an anticompetitive move by Microsoft in the last decade, but Teams has taken on both Slack and Zoom and friends and they shove it "for free" down their enterprise customers' throats. It's crying out for a competition authority investigation and a compulsory breaking up -- not just a FOSS client.

denysvitali 4y ago
Of course, but in the meantime since we can't change the situation (me and others who have been forced to use Teams) you have to stop the bleeding for those who are truly suffering from M$ + Management's decisions
epups 4y ago
Can you elaborate on this point a bit? It seems to me that you are saying Microsoft should not be allowed to release their own version of Slack and Zoom for free. I don't see the argument for that, especially since Microsoft itself has in the past released free software that does essentially what these other tools also do, and largely inspired them (Skype, for example).
- azalemeth 4y ago
  Sure. > It seems to me that you are saying Microsoft should not be allowed to release their own version of Slack and Zoom for free. That is exactly what I'm saying, because it is against EU competition law as Microsoft has a dominant position in the market -- the "plain English" guide to competition law simply states: [1] If your company has a large market share, it holds a dominant position and must take particular care not to: • charge unreasonably high prices which would exploit customers • charge unrealistically low prices which may drive competitors out of the market • discriminate between customers • force certain trading conditions on your business partners Microsoft does arguably all of these with different products to some level. Zoom, Slack, Discord etc are all paid-for products with a cost that, prior to February 2020, companies paid for separately. Microsoft then came along with Teams and released it as part of a certain tier of M365 subscription for free. Whilst Zoom and friends have not been driven out of the market, they have suffered as a result of it and what was a burgeoning industry, including with "freemium" or "paid support" FOSS models like Jitsi, have suffered as the corporate behemoths of the world use Teams. The real proof of the pudding is the fact that most users hate Teams: it's widely regarded as being not as good as its competitors and yet is massively used. Why? Monopolistic business practices. [1] https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competition-between-businesses/competition-rules-eu/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competit...

zorr 4y ago

What sets this project apart from the MS Graph API? Are there any API features that Graph does not have? I have built an alternative Teams client for smart glasses using only MS Graph and Azure Communication Services and it can already do most interactions related to chat/meetings/org etc.

denysvitali 4y ago
It's not using the MS Graph API and it's copying what the Teams Desktop client is doing. This gives you a way to run an alternative client in corporations where you don't have the possibility to use third party apps. On top of that, since it's not using the Graph API, we might get better features that will take long time to be available in the Graph API.
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  I think it's funny that casual hobbyists can easily outproduce Microsoft's supposedly world class engineering organization. It's not even a question in anyone's mind either. You guys know you're going to beat them (or already have), everyone here takes it as a given, even the engineers at MSFT probably know it. Even if they try to stop you guys, they probably won't be able to pull it off unless they can manage it in court
  - zorr 4y ago
    Why is that funny? I think it is normal that a hobby team working in a silo on an alternative client with a low amount of users move faster than a full engineering organization working on a mass rolled out product used in corporate environment all over the world. For a new feature the hobby team can just hack away for a few nights, push the release and they are done. The engineering org needs to plan and coordinate the feature across multiple teams (web app, desktop app, mobile app, Graph, teams admin panel, o365 admin panel,...) and then make sure it fits well into the rest of the MS infrastructure (policies, permission scopes, IT admin controls, licensing, auditing,...). Legal might need to be involved. And then after aligning all those teams and waiting for each team to prioritize and do the work it needs to get into the MS roadmap as well going through the usual stages (private preview, public preview, General Availability). And once it hits GA it needs to be supported for many years.

jbm 4y ago

I love you. Thank you for this.

JeremyNT 4y ago

I appreciate your efforts, because Teams is so terrible, but I'd love to avoid yet another chat application with its own UI. Pidgin is great for consolidating many of these walled garden chat services (e.g. Discord/Slack) into a unified UI, do you have any plans to develop a libpurple plugin?

denysvitali 4y ago
Once we have a solid base library, it can be included as a plugin everywhere. We've had already requests for a Weechat plugin [1], and Pidgin / Matrix are good candidates too. [1]: https://github.com/fossteams/teams-cli/issues/2 https://github.com/fossteams/teams-cli/issues/2