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If you reflect closely enough on your own thinking process, you will realize that every thought you consciously observe seemingly comes from nowhere. You don't

If you reflect closely enough on your own thinking process, you will realize that every thought you consciously observe seemingly comes from nowhere. You don't get choose your thoughts. Consider I give you the task "think of a color". You choose blue. How did you choose blue? Did you consider the color lavender? If there are some colors you considered, how did you choose what to consider? And why wasn't lavender one of them? Did you choose not to consider lavender? In reality, I give you the task "think of a color" and some thoughts of colors come into your consciousness via some unconscious process. I think "red, blue, orange, red, oh wait I already thought of red, green, purple, red, why do I keep thinking of red, yellow, hmmmm ok I pick blue I guess." I wasn't deciding which thoughts were going to come into my conscious view. They just appeared. When I had those thoughts of internal monologue about thinking of red so much, I wasn't choosing to have those thoughts either. I was just observing them as they appeared in consciousness. When I settled on blue, I knew I wanted to avoid red because I had thought about it so much. But when did I choose to have that want? I didn't. It just appeared.

pdonis 4y ago
> If you reflect closely enough on your own thinking process, you will realize that every thought you consciously observe seemingly comes from nowhere. You don't get choose your thoughts. Perhaps this matches your experience. It doesn't match mine. Some of my thoughts might work like this, but not all of them. More generally, the fact that none of us get to choose everything about our lives or our mental processes (which as a general claim I agree with, even if I disagree about a specific case as above) does not justify the claim that we choose nothing. You are simply focusing on particular cases and then making invalid generalizations from them.
- gamegoblin 4y ago
  Can you provide an example of a thought that recursively asking things like "why did you think that thought" or "why did you choose to think that thought" doesn't eventually get to an unconscious cause?
  - pdonis 4y ago
    You are getting things backwards. Consciousness is not some magic dust that gets sprinkled over certain thoughts. Consciousness is part of the process of having thoughts. The fact that we don't have conscious access to all of our thoughts does not mean we cannot consciously choose anything about our thoughts. Similar remarks apply to "free will". "Free will" is not some magic property that some of our mental acts get endowed with. It is part of the process of our thinking and acting. The fact that we don't and can't freely choose everything about that process does not mean we cannot make choices at all.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Do you believe that thinking is a physical process (that it’s embodied as or is the outcome of chemical/electrical activity)? Do you believe that the initial state of all the particles in your body (including brain) exists? If so, what leads you to conclude that thinking is anything other than an on-going electro-chemical reaction that we’re just observing the outputs of and concluding that we’re controlling it somehow?
      - inimino 4y ago
        > an on-going electro-chemical reaction that we’re just observing the outputs of and concluding that we’re controlling it somehow? Who is the "we" in that sentence, that is not in control?
        sokoloff 4y ago
        The portion of the chemical reaction that "thinks" of itself as having some kind of consciousness that's somehow non-physical rather than just reactions in a blob of salty tapioca.
        inimino 4y ago
        But what if it thinks it is the tapioca, and that it gets to choose? Would that not be correct?
swayvil 4y ago
Given the array of visible thoughts, I can choose to direct attention at some thoughts and ignore others. So that's a variety of choice that has the effect of conditioning the thought-stream. (But yes, thoughts just arise. Like sights and sounds. Only our power to arrange them seems special)
- gamegoblin 4y ago
  Even that is not clear to me. When you are focusing on a problem, and then catch yourself distracted daydreaming, when did you choose to direct your attention away from the problem and towards the daydream? It's not obvious to me at all that I consciously author the choice of where to direct my attention. And even in the cases where I do think "Ok, I am going to think about X", did I author that thought? On down recursively. Thoughts appear, and I notice them, but I never choose to notice them. It's all quite mysterious.
  - swayvil 4y ago
    The nature of attention-direction, the way it moves and such, be it a choice or otherwise, is indeed mysterious. One phenomenon that you might consider is that when you direct your attention at one thing (be it a thought or whatatever) you become blind to other things. And this blindness is proportional to the intensity of the attention-directing.
scruple 4y ago
The thought that I had to go to the bathroom after waking up certainly, absolutely came from somewhere I can identify.

pdonis 4y ago

> If you reflect closely enough on your own thinking process, you will realize that every thought you consciously observe seemingly comes from nowhere. You don't get choose your thoughts. Perhaps this matches your experience. It doesn't match mine. Some of my thoughts might work like this, but not all of them. More generally, the fact that none of us get to choose everything about our lives or our mental processes (which as a general claim I agree with, even if I disagree about a specific case as above) does not justify the claim that we choose nothing. You are simply focusing on particular cases and then making invalid generalizations from them.

gamegoblin 4y ago
Can you provide an example of a thought that recursively asking things like "why did you think that thought" or "why did you choose to think that thought" doesn't eventually get to an unconscious cause?
- pdonis 4y ago
  You are getting things backwards. Consciousness is not some magic dust that gets sprinkled over certain thoughts. Consciousness is part of the process of having thoughts. The fact that we don't have conscious access to all of our thoughts does not mean we cannot consciously choose anything about our thoughts. Similar remarks apply to "free will". "Free will" is not some magic property that some of our mental acts get endowed with. It is part of the process of our thinking and acting. The fact that we don't and can't freely choose everything about that process does not mean we cannot make choices at all.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Do you believe that thinking is a physical process (that it’s embodied as or is the outcome of chemical/electrical activity)? Do you believe that the initial state of all the particles in your body (including brain) exists? If so, what leads you to conclude that thinking is anything other than an on-going electro-chemical reaction that we’re just observing the outputs of and concluding that we’re controlling it somehow?
    - inimino 4y ago
      > an on-going electro-chemical reaction that we’re just observing the outputs of and concluding that we’re controlling it somehow? Who is the "we" in that sentence, that is not in control?
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        The portion of the chemical reaction that "thinks" of itself as having some kind of consciousness that's somehow non-physical rather than just reactions in a blob of salty tapioca.
        inimino 4y ago
        But what if it thinks it is the tapioca, and that it gets to choose? Would that not be correct?

swayvil 4y ago

Given the array of visible thoughts, I can choose to direct attention at some thoughts and ignore others. So that's a variety of choice that has the effect of conditioning the thought-stream. (But yes, thoughts just arise. Like sights and sounds. Only our power to arrange them seems special)

gamegoblin 4y ago
Even that is not clear to me. When you are focusing on a problem, and then catch yourself distracted daydreaming, when did you choose to direct your attention away from the problem and towards the daydream? It's not obvious to me at all that I consciously author the choice of where to direct my attention. And even in the cases where I do think "Ok, I am going to think about X", did I author that thought? On down recursively. Thoughts appear, and I notice them, but I never choose to notice them. It's all quite mysterious.
- swayvil 4y ago
  The nature of attention-direction, the way it moves and such, be it a choice or otherwise, is indeed mysterious. One phenomenon that you might consider is that when you direct your attention at one thing (be it a thought or whatatever) you become blind to other things. And this blindness is proportional to the intensity of the attention-directing.

scruple 4y ago

The thought that I had to go to the bathroom after waking up certainly, absolutely came from somewhere I can identify.