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He's a programmer. They re cheaper than scrooge. They'll write a tool themselves in 6 months rather than spend 10 dollars. Idk why but programmers are the chea

He's a programmer. They re cheaper than scrooge. They'll write a tool themselves in 6 months rather than spend 10 dollars. Idk why but programmers are the cheapest people on earth in regards to programming tools. I bought Intellij idea for $400 like 12 years ago and got made fun of at work even though it made me substantially faster than eclipse.

erulabs 4y ago
This is partly because in English we literally lack the word required. Free is both “gratis” and “libre”. Software should be free, but software does not need to be free. The lack of distinction on this term plagues the English speaking world in more ways than frugal programmers. See: the entire political spectrum in the US
- sillysaurusx 4y ago
  Can you be more specific? Suppose a new word was introduced. What would the dictionary definition be?
  - erulabs 4y ago
    Well it's hard to add a new word to mean either "gratis" or "libre" in english because free would still mean both things. But to be more clear: Free as in "gratis" is like "buy one get one free". It means something provided at no cost - ie: "They had a problem with their computer system so they gave me the salad for free" Free as in "libre" is like "freedom", a more abstract concept about being not being restricted from something or having the right to something. Software can be "free as in libre", ie: it's open-source. It can also be "free as in gratis" in that it costs no money. But they're different concepts, and have different implications. Many developers want software to be "free", as in open-source, and confuse that with "I will allocate no resources towards that thing". I particularly like the "free as in beer", which is a HIGHLY confused term, but I take it to mean: Beer itself is free - it's not patented and anyone can learn to make it. However, any individual beer is a product that took effort to produce, and thus, is not free of charge.
    - dpistole 4y ago
      I think your interpretation of "free as in beer" is the opposite of the mainstream (where my understanding is it means "free of charge")
      - erulabs 4y ago
        It is - but the mainstream “free as in beer” makes no sense. Who gives away free beer? Beer is free as in libre, not free as in gratis! But you’re correct - the mainstream meaning of that term is the opposite - which I find bizarre.
        dpistole 4y ago
        I think it makes sense in the "beer is tangible" and "speech is not" sense (to my brain anyway). If I saw a "free beer" sign in a window I'd probably be inclined to think (albeit suspiciously) that there might be a frosty mug inside at no cost to me. Whereas if I saw a "free speech" sign, I'd assume they support my right to say whatever I want (or I suppose maybe that there's a lecture going on inside with no admittance fee). We all got different brains though, shoutout learning from others perspectives, ty for sharing yours.
        gardenhedge 4y ago
        There's nothing to learn from his incorrect perspective. It means available at no cost.
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        > It is - but the mainstream “free as in beer” makes no sense. Who gives away free beer? The quote references it because it is (or was) a cliché promotional offering.
        webmaven 4y ago
        Try this on for size: "open as in bar".
- _tom_ 4y ago
  The industry has come up with a few phrases for this "Free as in beer" you get something, you don't have to pay. "Free as in speech" you have the rights to do things, like modify source code. and later "Free as in puppies" As in you get it for free, but it's gonna cost you later. Most open source software is like this, you get it, but have to invest is using/mastering/maintaining it. Of course, you have to invest like this in paid, software as well.
sesm 4y ago
I’m paying about €200/year for Jetbrains Toolbox. This gives me a set of IDEs, one of which I’m using daily. And that’s less money than ChatGPT is asking.
- DoesntMatter22 4y ago
  Yeah but JetBrains isn't writing your code for you. This is a whole other level of technology that you cannot compare to something that exists already.
  - bombolo 4y ago
    ChatGPT isn't writing correct code. But it is making the copyright ownership open to lawsuits.
jghn 4y ago
$10 is much different than $20/month. I'm intrigued by ChatGPT as a work assistance tool. I have found it useful a number of times. But there's no way it's adding a contours $20/month of value to my day when I compare it to other things on which I spend my money. I'd rather just not have it than spend that much. $20 one time fee? Maybe. $20/mo? Not at all. This is no different than streaming media services. There are streaming apps where I'd like to see their content, but not the rate they charge I don't find worth the value. So I don't subscribe.
- weatherlite 4y ago
  Probably prices will be pushed down eventually, Google, Apple, maybe Facebook and Chinese companies will all offer competing products.
  - scriptproof 4y ago
    The Chinese version would have to complies with party guidelines, so not for me. But I am curious what sort of service Microsoft will offer when this will be integrated in Bing. Or the Google's version.
scubbo 4y ago
Was IntelliJ Community Edition free at the time?
- DoesntMatter22 4y ago
  I think so but I wanted some of the paid features. Even still, if you look at the costs it's NOTHING. Lets just say it's $400/year. That comes out to about $1.5 a day. I'm earning at that time $284 per day. It probably reduced my work stress by 20% so this was incredibly cheap. And even then I used that license for 2 years, so it was really 75 cents a day. Developers will spend $5 on a bagel but not $5 a day for tools, it's pretty wild
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > Developers will spend $5 on a bagel but not $5 a day for tools, it's pretty wild That's because savings-due-to-tools don't scale but rental does. I can all but guarantee that you're using, daily, some tool that is free. Why aren't you paying $5 a day for it? You've gotten more value out of bash, grep and related tools than IntelliJ is ever worth to you, and yet if I came up to you and said "here, use my replacement grep, bash, etc for only $5/day" you'd laugh. Developers who aren't using the expensive tools aren't cheapskate like you assume; they're simply too tired to want or need another rental, because the marginal increase in time savings won't be noticed by them.
    - KronisLV 4y ago
      > I can all but guarantee that you're using, daily, some tool that is free. Why aren't you paying $5 a day for it? Because nobody has been crafty enough to capitalize on that market, or is unable to provide a sufficiently convincing alternative that would attract people to it. For example, I can get by with something like mRemoteNG for tabbed SSH sessions: https://mremoteng.org/ https://mremoteng.org/ It's kind of quirky but works. Someone else might appreciate something like the excellent MobaXTerm more, which adds multi-execution capabilities, a GUI for port forwarding and much more: https://mobaxterm.mobatek.net/ https://mobaxterm.mobatek.net/ Sometimes free tools also become paid, see Docker Desktop (for business) or something like Lens: both are proof that, it feeling like a rug pull aside, many people will pay for what even was formerly a free tool. On the opposite side of the spectrum, you have developers that can't capitalize on their software and the projects aren't sustainable: https://staltz.com/software-below-the-poverty-line.html https://staltz.com/software-below-the-poverty-line.html On a more positive note, this is why Open collective, GitHub Sponsors and other crowd funding solutions are nice, since now you can throw money towards whatever projects you support and think deserve to exist. > You've gotten more value out of bash, grep and related tools than IntelliJ is ever worth to you, and yet if I came up to you and said "here, use my replacement grep, bash, etc for only $5/day" you'd laugh. Someone might laugh, but there's a project out there that attempts to commercially create a terminal replacement: https://www.warp.dev/ https://www.warp.dev/ Many would find the idea offensive (such a core part of their interaction with the computer having paid aspects), but that's just the world that we live in. Not all IDEs are free. Not all OSes are free. You don't even own software nowadays, more often you just rent it. If there is profit to be made, someone will make it. I think that the free software movement has its nice aspects, but people will absolutely pay for whatever makes their lives easier or more pleasant.
bombolo 4y ago
> I bought Intellij idea for $400 like 12 years ago and got made fun of at work even though it made me substantially faster than eclipse. And? You have 400$ less than them.
- stavros 4y ago
  What is the benefit of cash you never use?
  - bombolo 4y ago
    The benefit is to use for something else that benefits them :P
    - stavros 4y ago
      Like IntelliJ?
      - bombolo 4y ago
        More like the lego castle.
        stavros 4y ago
        Oh man, now I want that.

erulabs 4y ago

This is partly because in English we literally lack the word required. Free is both “gratis” and “libre”. Software should be free, but software does not need to be free. The lack of distinction on this term plagues the English speaking world in more ways than frugal programmers. See: the entire political spectrum in the US

sillysaurusx 4y ago
Can you be more specific? Suppose a new word was introduced. What would the dictionary definition be?
- erulabs 4y ago
  Well it's hard to add a new word to mean either "gratis" or "libre" in english because free would still mean both things. But to be more clear: Free as in "gratis" is like "buy one get one free". It means something provided at no cost - ie: "They had a problem with their computer system so they gave me the salad for free" Free as in "libre" is like "freedom", a more abstract concept about being not being restricted from something or having the right to something. Software can be "free as in libre", ie: it's open-source. It can also be "free as in gratis" in that it costs no money. But they're different concepts, and have different implications. Many developers want software to be "free", as in open-source, and confuse that with "I will allocate no resources towards that thing". I particularly like the "free as in beer", which is a HIGHLY confused term, but I take it to mean: Beer itself is free - it's not patented and anyone can learn to make it. However, any individual beer is a product that took effort to produce, and thus, is not free of charge.
  - dpistole 4y ago
    I think your interpretation of "free as in beer" is the opposite of the mainstream (where my understanding is it means "free of charge")
    - erulabs 4y ago
      It is - but the mainstream “free as in beer” makes no sense. Who gives away free beer? Beer is free as in libre, not free as in gratis! But you’re correct - the mainstream meaning of that term is the opposite - which I find bizarre.
      - dpistole 4y ago
        I think it makes sense in the "beer is tangible" and "speech is not" sense (to my brain anyway). If I saw a "free beer" sign in a window I'd probably be inclined to think (albeit suspiciously) that there might be a frosty mug inside at no cost to me. Whereas if I saw a "free speech" sign, I'd assume they support my right to say whatever I want (or I suppose maybe that there's a lecture going on inside with no admittance fee). We all got different brains though, shoutout learning from others perspectives, ty for sharing yours.
        gardenhedge 4y ago
        There's nothing to learn from his incorrect perspective. It means available at no cost.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > It is - but the mainstream “free as in beer” makes no sense. Who gives away free beer? The quote references it because it is (or was) a cliché promotional offering.
      - webmaven 4y ago
        Try this on for size: "open as in bar".
_tom_ 4y ago
The industry has come up with a few phrases for this "Free as in beer" you get something, you don't have to pay. "Free as in speech" you have the rights to do things, like modify source code. and later "Free as in puppies" As in you get it for free, but it's gonna cost you later. Most open source software is like this, you get it, but have to invest is using/mastering/maintaining it. Of course, you have to invest like this in paid, software as well.

sesm 4y ago

I’m paying about €200/year for Jetbrains Toolbox. This gives me a set of IDEs, one of which I’m using daily. And that’s less money than ChatGPT is asking.

DoesntMatter22 4y ago
Yeah but JetBrains isn't writing your code for you. This is a whole other level of technology that you cannot compare to something that exists already.
- bombolo 4y ago
  ChatGPT isn't writing correct code. But it is making the copyright ownership open to lawsuits.

jghn 4y ago

$10 is much different than $20/month. I'm intrigued by ChatGPT as a work assistance tool. I have found it useful a number of times. But there's no way it's adding a contours $20/month of value to my day when I compare it to other things on which I spend my money. I'd rather just not have it than spend that much. $20 one time fee? Maybe. $20/mo? Not at all. This is no different than streaming media services. There are streaming apps where I'd like to see their content, but not the rate they charge I don't find worth the value. So I don't subscribe.

weatherlite 4y ago
Probably prices will be pushed down eventually, Google, Apple, maybe Facebook and Chinese companies will all offer competing products.
- scriptproof 4y ago
  The Chinese version would have to complies with party guidelines, so not for me. But I am curious what sort of service Microsoft will offer when this will be integrated in Bing. Or the Google's version.

scubbo 4y ago

Was IntelliJ Community Edition free at the time?

DoesntMatter22 4y ago
I think so but I wanted some of the paid features. Even still, if you look at the costs it's NOTHING. Lets just say it's $400/year. That comes out to about $1.5 a day. I'm earning at that time $284 per day. It probably reduced my work stress by 20% so this was incredibly cheap. And even then I used that license for 2 years, so it was really 75 cents a day. Developers will spend $5 on a bagel but not $5 a day for tools, it's pretty wild
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > Developers will spend $5 on a bagel but not $5 a day for tools, it's pretty wild That's because savings-due-to-tools don't scale but rental does. I can all but guarantee that you're using, daily, some tool that is free. Why aren't you paying $5 a day for it? You've gotten more value out of bash, grep and related tools than IntelliJ is ever worth to you, and yet if I came up to you and said "here, use my replacement grep, bash, etc for only $5/day" you'd laugh. Developers who aren't using the expensive tools aren't cheapskate like you assume; they're simply too tired to want or need another rental, because the marginal increase in time savings won't be noticed by them.
  - KronisLV 4y ago
    > I can all but guarantee that you're using, daily, some tool that is free. Why aren't you paying $5 a day for it? Because nobody has been crafty enough to capitalize on that market, or is unable to provide a sufficiently convincing alternative that would attract people to it. For example, I can get by with something like mRemoteNG for tabbed SSH sessions: https://mremoteng.org/ https://mremoteng.org/ It's kind of quirky but works. Someone else might appreciate something like the excellent MobaXTerm more, which adds multi-execution capabilities, a GUI for port forwarding and much more: https://mobaxterm.mobatek.net/ https://mobaxterm.mobatek.net/ Sometimes free tools also become paid, see Docker Desktop (for business) or something like Lens: both are proof that, it feeling like a rug pull aside, many people will pay for what even was formerly a free tool. On the opposite side of the spectrum, you have developers that can't capitalize on their software and the projects aren't sustainable: https://staltz.com/software-below-the-poverty-line.html https://staltz.com/software-below-the-poverty-line.html On a more positive note, this is why Open collective, GitHub Sponsors and other crowd funding solutions are nice, since now you can throw money towards whatever projects you support and think deserve to exist. > You've gotten more value out of bash, grep and related tools than IntelliJ is ever worth to you, and yet if I came up to you and said "here, use my replacement grep, bash, etc for only $5/day" you'd laugh. Someone might laugh, but there's a project out there that attempts to commercially create a terminal replacement: https://www.warp.dev/ https://www.warp.dev/ Many would find the idea offensive (such a core part of their interaction with the computer having paid aspects), but that's just the world that we live in. Not all IDEs are free. Not all OSes are free. You don't even own software nowadays, more often you just rent it. If there is profit to be made, someone will make it. I think that the free software movement has its nice aspects, but people will absolutely pay for whatever makes their lives easier or more pleasant.

bombolo 4y ago

> I bought Intellij idea for $400 like 12 years ago and got made fun of at work even though it made me substantially faster than eclipse. And? You have 400$ less than them.

stavros 4y ago
What is the benefit of cash you never use?
- bombolo 4y ago
  The benefit is to use for something else that benefits them :P
  - stavros 4y ago
    Like IntelliJ?
    - bombolo 4y ago
      More like the lego castle.
      - stavros 4y ago
        Oh man, now I want that.