3 ms·

That specific stance, I don't believe, is framed to represent accurately the worries many have surrounding educational outcomes. I have trouble believing anyone

by uoaei 4y ago

That specific stance, I don't believe, is framed to represent accurately the worries many have surrounding educational outcomes. I have trouble believing anyone would disagree that in the present, without a notion of time or continuity, that is indeed an obvious fact. But your straw man does not stand up under his own power. The concern is and always will be what differentiates peoples' abilities, and which abilities in which people are incentivized / selected for in our society. These are of course still matters of intense debate. We are reasonably sure by now that it is both nurture and nature -- indeed, a synthesis of the two perspectives -- that is vital to understand all the forces at play. On the "nature" side, genetic damage resulting from multi-generational trauma has been identified as a reasonable explanation over that of some notion of "inherent" genetic differences by race. So, while the contributing aspects of "nurture" happened in the past, it is the "nature" of the specific individual, born already with those disadvantages, that largely determines the outcomes of their lives. There is of course still the "nurture" of that individual, whose environment can influence the balance of advantage or disadvantage for that person after they are born as regards positive outcomes. This is not limited to family life but extends to all forces incident on that individual. Then it seems inevitable that, as a result of any focused campaign of coercion or discrimination, persistent statistical patterns will arise within oppressed sub-populations which impact outcomes for future generations. In other words, we are all still living among the echoes of the past.

syzarian 4y ago
If one asserts that anyone can learn any topic, and there are many in higher ed who do assert this, then demonstrating this isn’t true by pointing out that mentally disabled people can’t learn college algebra is enough to demonstrate the absurdity of this assertion. What those in higher ed are afraid to confront is the idea that there are people who aren’t college material. There is a continuum of intellectual talent ranging from severely mentally disabled to genius. For each topic/subject there is a line in terms of the required talent (and effort) to learn a topic. Proponents of everyone can go to college and be successful ought to be precise in their statements. What they really mean is that more people are capable of succeeding in college than our currently attending college. If they would argue thusly and say it as such then a real discussion can be had. Instead we have people saying everyone can go to college. This shuts down any notion that perhaps too many people are going to college. No reasonable discussion can be had when one starts with the clearly false statement that anyone can go to college. Why some people aren’t capable of succeeding in college and the causes of such is a different discussion.
- WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
  > If one asserts that anyone can learn any topic, and there are many in higher ed who do assert this, Can you cite some examples that reflect this exists on a meaningful scale? I never ran into this at college nor have I known anyone to say they witnessed it. It seems like we should have, if this is a routine thing.
  - syzarian 4y ago
    Every discussion about college success rates that I have been a part of revolved around faculty not doing their job correctly. The latest fashion is doing “trauma informed teaching”. Every reform in math teaching is about the need to change teaching to get more students to succeed. Never is there is a discussion about what percent of the population can learn, say, college algebra. The assumption of all of our duty days (days devoted to student success rates) is that more students can pass our classes than do pass. A majority of incoming college students place into pre-college level courses. A recent trend is to ban pre-college level courses and instead do supplemental instruction in college algebra. Too many students are underprepared so we ban the courses to get them prepared. It is now a trend to no longer require college algebra level knowledge to get a college degree. The only reason for this trend is because a lot of people fail college algebra. The only discussion I’ve seen regarding limits to learning algebra is at this link: https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/11396/what-fraction-of-the-population-is-incapable-of-learning-algebra/11401#11401 https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/11396/what...
    - uoaei 4y ago
      > that I have been a part of If you acknowledge you have such a limited viewpoint, why make such strong assertions of facts? You cannot possibly know the things you are pretending to be an authority on.
      - syzarian 4y ago
        My limited viewpoint is over 20 years in higher education and experiencing reforms over the years. I’m not an expert in these matters and never claimed to be one. Nor have I given an impression of being an authority. It is common for people to make conclusions on topics based on their experience and what they’ve read. We all do this since none of us can possibly fully research all topics. In my first post I specifically declared that I have no expertise on these matters. I think this topic is an emotional one for you and this is clouding your interpretation of what I have written. I’ve encountered people like you at the various colleges I’ve taught at. You make it hard to have discussions regarding uncomfortable ideas. Such is not befitting of a person with your apparent intellectual capabilities. The only strong assertion that I’ve made is that some people can’t learn college algebra. If you can find a severely mentally disabled person who has learned college algebra then please present your evidence. I suggest you are part of the problem in education. If we can’t acknowledge even the obvious (namely that not everyone can learn every topic) then we will continue the trend of dumbing down standards and curriculum and just passing people through the system in a misguided approach to educational equity.

by uoaei 4y ago

syzarian 4y ago

If one asserts that anyone can learn any topic, and there are many in higher ed who do assert this, then demonstrating this isn’t true by pointing out that mentally disabled people can’t learn college algebra is enough to demonstrate the absurdity of this assertion. What those in higher ed are afraid to confront is the idea that there are people who aren’t college material. There is a continuum of intellectual talent ranging from severely mentally disabled to genius. For each topic/subject there is a line in terms of the required talent (and effort) to learn a topic. Proponents of everyone can go to college and be successful ought to be precise in their statements. What they really mean is that more people are capable of succeeding in college than our currently attending college. If they would argue thusly and say it as such then a real discussion can be had. Instead we have people saying everyone can go to college. This shuts down any notion that perhaps too many people are going to college. No reasonable discussion can be had when one starts with the clearly false statement that anyone can go to college. Why some people aren’t capable of succeeding in college and the causes of such is a different discussion.

WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
> If one asserts that anyone can learn any topic, and there are many in higher ed who do assert this, Can you cite some examples that reflect this exists on a meaningful scale? I never ran into this at college nor have I known anyone to say they witnessed it. It seems like we should have, if this is a routine thing.
- syzarian 4y ago
  Every discussion about college success rates that I have been a part of revolved around faculty not doing their job correctly. The latest fashion is doing “trauma informed teaching”. Every reform in math teaching is about the need to change teaching to get more students to succeed. Never is there is a discussion about what percent of the population can learn, say, college algebra. The assumption of all of our duty days (days devoted to student success rates) is that more students can pass our classes than do pass. A majority of incoming college students place into pre-college level courses. A recent trend is to ban pre-college level courses and instead do supplemental instruction in college algebra. Too many students are underprepared so we ban the courses to get them prepared. It is now a trend to no longer require college algebra level knowledge to get a college degree. The only reason for this trend is because a lot of people fail college algebra. The only discussion I’ve seen regarding limits to learning algebra is at this link: https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/11396/what-fraction-of-the-population-is-incapable-of-learning-algebra/11401#11401 https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/11396/what...
  - uoaei 4y ago
    > that I have been a part of If you acknowledge you have such a limited viewpoint, why make such strong assertions of facts? You cannot possibly know the things you are pretending to be an authority on.
    - syzarian 4y ago
      My limited viewpoint is over 20 years in higher education and experiencing reforms over the years. I’m not an expert in these matters and never claimed to be one. Nor have I given an impression of being an authority. It is common for people to make conclusions on topics based on their experience and what they’ve read. We all do this since none of us can possibly fully research all topics. In my first post I specifically declared that I have no expertise on these matters. I think this topic is an emotional one for you and this is clouding your interpretation of what I have written. I’ve encountered people like you at the various colleges I’ve taught at. You make it hard to have discussions regarding uncomfortable ideas. Such is not befitting of a person with your apparent intellectual capabilities. The only strong assertion that I’ve made is that some people can’t learn college algebra. If you can find a severely mentally disabled person who has learned college algebra then please present your evidence. I suggest you are part of the problem in education. If we can’t acknowledge even the obvious (namely that not everyone can learn every topic) then we will continue the trend of dumbing down standards and curriculum and just passing people through the system in a misguided approach to educational equity.