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The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quic

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought. That contrasts sharply with 4chan’s demographics and motivations. I don’t think that anyone will look back with fondness or positivity toward a bunch of closeted homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels circle jerking themselves into a froth over who’s the edgiest edge lord.

eddsh1994 4y ago
> The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. That's an interesting point I haven't heard of before, thanks :)
- z3c0 4y ago
  If you'd like to see it stratified as a full-blown fact, here's the interview where John Ehrlichman explained that it was a planned strategy to discredit Nixon's naysayers. https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/ https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/ > “You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
wskinner 4y ago
> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought. Then it’s worth considering why the prevailing culture at the time didn’t see it that way.
- linksnapzz 4y ago
  We are the people who support Good Things. Therefore, anyone who opposes us is ipso facto supporting Bad Things.
  - z3c0 4y ago
    Enter the Ronald Reagan presidential campaign, stage right
    - linksnapzz 4y ago
      I can't find the citation, but legend has it that as CA governor, Reagan was in his limo, and was surrounded by protestors in Berkeley. They were chanting "We are the future!" while pounding on the windows of the car. Reagan got his notepad out, and wrote "If you are the future, I'm selling all my stocks!" on a sheet of paper, and held it up to the window for them to read.
      - nebula8804 4y ago
        But that makes no sense. Didn't Reagan win due to an outpouring of support from the Boomers who at the time were those young people?
        linksnapzz 4y ago
        Hahahahah. No. He won b/c he annoyed those people, to the delight of their parents.
        nebula8804 4y ago
graphe 4y ago
You've made a mistake that most people do with hippies. Hippies were not political. Student protestors and hippies are seen as the same thing even though they're not. Hippies didn't go to protest. 4chan is another place you mischaracterize due to the mainstream media. Social rejects go there. Of every kind. You probably ignored the fact that there's been an LGBT board for more than a decade since you don't go there.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dudeofea 4y ago
If you're interested in a more nuanced view of hippies, read "Jester: Memoirs of a Retired Hippie" No one is objectively good because they are human after all. Hippies had good values, but also bad ones such as: uncleanliness, irresponsible drug use, parasitism, thoughtlessness, and sometimes even vanity.
scythe 4y ago
> > 4chan is generally anti-ukraine-war >The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, [...] >That contrasts sharply with 4chan’s demographics and motivations. I know I shouldn't criticize the Current War lest I be accused of supporting the Current Enemy, but I just can't help but point out the irony here. >bunch of closeted homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted [italics mine] Surely you must see the problem with this clause.
MockObject 4y ago
> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought. History is written by the winners.
everdrive 4y ago
This is really a minor point and has no bearing on the larger argument being made here, but the hippies had all sorts of terrible traits. Some “rediscovered” lost diseases such as trench foot due to a need to eschew any modern practices such as bathing. And some raised their children in broken, drug-addled homes, in search of “enlightenment.”
tonfreed 4y ago
Spoken like a true 1960s establishment thinker. Put yourself in the shoes of a WW2 veteran in the 60s. He sees his children get sucked into drug culture and protesting against the military that just 20 years ago saved the Pacific from tyranny. You turn on the news and see them making a nuisance of themselves in the streets. They're ungroomed, ugly, and do weird sex stuff. You ask yourself where you went wrong raising them and lament the collapse of society and death of American values.
- at-w 4y ago
  Or more objectively, they see murder rates literally doubling from 1964-1974, a rise never before seen in American history. They see a massive drug epidemic and an entirely unprecedented breakdown in the family unit that results in literally millions of children born to single mothers. They see a collapse of social institutions coinciding with an again unprecedented rise in suicides and antisocial activities. They see cities like Detroit, Newark (and to varying degrees nearly every other major city in the US) begin rapid declines that haven't been reversed to this day. Then they look to every other Western country that experienced the same "counterculture" in the same period and see these same issues to a similar or even greater extent. It is either incredibly ignorant or intentionally dishonest to pretend that the 1960s counterculture was some uniformly benevolent force for peace and love, and says a lot about the person claiming so's lack of ability to see anything outside their contemporary/status-quo perspective.
  - hinkley 4y ago
    Keepin your head above water Makin’ your way if you can Temporary layoffs Good Times Easy credit ripoffs Good Times Ain’t we lucky we got ‘em? Good Times!
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    Didn't the gangs in for instance L.A. start using guns and selling drugs after they got Vietnam veterans in their ranks who had experience with all of that? (Makes one wonder what chickens will come home to roost in Russia eventually.)
- 4y ago
sjducb 4y ago
You can easily make the same case about 4 Chan. 4 Chan is rooted in things that are objectively good: free thought, satire and not taking anything too seriously.
- jjulius 4y ago
  Respectfully disagree. I'd argue that those are just fronts 4Chan hopes to hide behind so that it can remain a cesspool.
  - at-w 4y ago
    Can you see how '60s establishment types might think the same about people "hiding behind" peace and love gibberish to remain a cesspool of drug pushing, adulterous freeloaders, whose success in mainstreaming drugs and hostility to social institutions objectively coincided directly with an explosion in violent crime and social issues like single motherhood, drug addiction, rioting and urban decay, all of which rose to unprecedented levels from 1965-1975 in every Western country that experienced a similar "counterculture"? That's not to make any judgement on the societal value of 4Chan vs. the 1960s counterculture. It's just that neither is/was a uniform group that can be defined as "rooted in X, Y, or Z," and people who claim they can are typically blind to the bias of their cultural perspective.
- oneplane 4y ago
  If only 4chan were rooted in those things. Sadly, it is rooted in only one thing: anonymised extremes. While you can stack other things on top of that, those are offshoots rather than the roots.
- SoftAnnaLee 4y ago
  This is a mischaracterization. 4chan was founded as a new place for Something Awful anime fans to post hentai and "loli" content after SA banned such things. It was always about contraband and bad-taste culture. The "dirtbag free speech" crowd flocked to it because of the side-effect of that initial culture being anti-moderation and being allowed to post whatever they wanted.
Perceval 4y ago
> homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels This is the counter-culture. The dominant culture opposes all of these things and makes obligatory the celebration of the opposite values. 4chan being one of the few lightly-restricted free speech zones allows for culture generation that would be censored anywhere else. Counter-culture is supposed to be edgy, just like jazz and rock were edgy, greasers/rockabilly were edgy, beatniks were edgy, hippies were edgy, disco was edgy, punks were edgy, LGBTQ was edgy, and so on. Every one of them were described by dismissive epithets just like the string you put together about how awful and contrary to decency they were.
- banannaise 4y ago
  > LGBTQ was edgy Aside from monogamous gay people, queerness is very much still edgy and not particularly accepted by the dominant/mainstream culture. (This is not a positive thing, but it is reality.)
  - subsistence234 4y ago
    >queerness is very much still edgy Something that people advertise about themselves on their linkedin profiles in order to get better job offers is the opposite of edgy.
  - savryn 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - mshake2 4y ago
    >queerness is very much still edgy and not particularly accepted by the dominant/mainstream culture Being supported by advertising, movies, tv shows, signaled by major corporations and workplaces, and supported top-down by the government means its edgy and counterculture? We live in completely different realities I guess.
    - czx4f4bd 4y ago
      > Aside from monogamous gay people Where are all these ads, movies, and TV shows depicting non-monogamous queer relationships? How is the government providing this "top-down" support? Are there now tax breaks for people in poly relationships?
at-w 4y ago
"I don't think anyone will look back with fondness or positivity towards a bunch of drug-pushing, mentally stunted adulterous freeloaders that disrespect hard working people, people putting their lives on the line for their country, people devoted to their families, and the nation that allows them the freedom to exist in the first place--while jerking themselves into a froth over who's the edgiest edge lord." Even as someone who favours liberal drug laws at this point, the social upheaval of the late '60s had objectively horrific consequences for the poor in particular. The massive drug epidemic that to this day kills more Americans than the entire Vietnam War every year, the unprecedented doubling of murder rates overall in nearly every Western country from 1965-1975, and collapse of the family unit seem like more tangible downsides than a small number of what you describe as edgelords jerking themselves into a froth on a forum read by other edgelords. Nearly every major social issue of the late 20th century exploded as a direct result of hippie culture bringing drugs and hostility towards the family and social institutions into the mainstream. People often think of rising crime as the result of the 1980s crack "epidemic," but the explosion in murder rates occurred almost entirely from 1966-1975 and actually grew at a slower pace up to 1990 (outside the UK): https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/uRI8Y/1/ https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/uRI8Y/1/ The US murder rate in 1974 was exactly the same as it was at the peak of the "Crack epidemic" in 1990, and more than double the rate it was in 1964. You can still argue the benefits outweighed the costs, but it's simply ignorant to pretend 1960s counterculture was some uniformly benevolent movement for peace and love, any more than the movement you identify with 4chan is merely a benevolent movement for "national pride" or "family values." How 4chan specifically got designated the "counterculture" in this thread is questionable, but so is the inability to look beyond the status-quo, contemporary perspective of major media, academia and corporations.
- joyeuse6701 4y ago
  “Nearly every major social issue of the late 20th century exploded as a direct result of hippie culture bringing drugs and hostility towards the family and social institutions into the mainstream.” Sources? Wasn’t the crack epidemic more related to Contra and the breaking of the family unit due to disproportionate incarceration of black males by the government in attempt to break their political power via the selective targeting of specific drugs by the govt, i.e marijuana and crack over cocaine?
tsss 4y ago
The central idea of 4chan is that it is liberal. Not liberal in the perverted US-American re-definition of the word. Liberal as in freedom. Anyone can express their opinion freely on 4chan and that includes racists.
tablespoon 4y ago
> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought. Honestly, I think you're making the mistake of confusing your subjective view with "objectivity." Like saying your opinions and preferences are "objectively" the right ones. Also, you appear to be describing your side in the most charitable way you can, those you oppose in the least charitable way, and unsurprisingly finding those you oppose wanting.
notinfuriated 4y ago
> closeted homophobic So in addition to them being homophobes, they are also closeted homosexuals? Why is it that this is such a popular insult among people here on HN? It's like this strange and incoherent insult from lefties where they think they're being supportive of gay people by calling out homophobia as bad, but also calling the homophobe gay to hurt them in some manner, which would imply that being gay is an insult. I suppose your defense might be that being gay is an insult to the homophobe, but why specifically would you call a homophobe gay, without further information? It erodes any assumption I'd have that you genuinely respect gay people if you're willing to just toss around some claims that this person or that group is gay. And if I thought someone was a gay homophobe, putting aside any argument with them I have otherwise, I'd probably feel somewhat bad for them to be in that position. Anyway, we both know that you're an edgelord. That's why you wrote that sentence. So quit hating on people who are just like you. You're like a closeted homophobe, but for 4chan edgelords.
Dig1t 4y ago
I'm not one to stick up for 4chan normally, but they are all about free thought. Mostly deplorable, but definitely free.
TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought. I tend to disagree that these are objectively good. One argument against is that any society that holds these as ideals will quickly be over run by societies that don't. Being disagreeable can have adaptive advantages.
bloaf 4y ago
The mainstream culture of the hippie's day would have said, with just as much disgust as you hold for the 4channers: > The hippies are rooted in things like naiveté, lust, drugs, immorality, communism, apathy, and atheism. There is a sense in the more liberal communities that cultures are good-by-definition. They do mental gymnastics to ensure that any harmful cultural artifacts (e.g. slavery) are explained away as "not really culture, but a product of external forces" (e.g. imperialism). I have never felt the need to do this: some cultures are on-the-whole bad, and that does not disqualify them from being cultures.
roncesvalles 4y ago
>I don’t think that anyone will look back with fondness or positivity toward a bunch of closeted homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels circle jerking themselves into a froth over who’s the edgiest edge lord. If that's your view of 4chan then the whole point of 4chan went over your head. 4chan is about irreverence of and rebellion against the current mainstream culture that if you're non-conformist in any way or hold a view that may be construed as offensive to anyone, your opinion (and person) has no value. It's a reaction to upvote/downvote culture on the Internet that rewards conformity. 4chan, famously, has a highly contemptuous opinion of Reddit. What 4chan says, self-deprecatingly, is "I will offend all your sensibilities. Oh you're still here? Ok, here's what I have to say." In my opinion (it's impossible to know for sure) most of it is pretense. There aren't actually as many racists, homophobes, sexists etc. It's satirically amplified as a form of gatekeeping.
- Nursie 4y ago
  And yet there really are many, and their hatred and bile spreads out across the internet, their 'fun' little things (like Q) spread out and fuck up real life too. It's a great example of how irony often doesn't really exist. Oh you were only playing at being a total arsehole ironically? That's not actually a good thing, and you've helped give cover to actual arseholes, spread their message and hatred, and now people have died. And all because you think it's fun to be edgy. Congrats.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
serf 4y ago
>That contrasts sharply with 4chan’s demographics and motivations. I don’t think that anyone will look back with fondness or positivity toward a bunch of closeted homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels circle jerking themselves into a froth over who’s the edgiest edge lord. not to defend 4chan, but this kind of categorical and imprecise summarization of a group of people is strongly similar to the things that my (very) hippy parents were told by their (very) straight-laced parents.
- MacsHeadroom 4y ago
  We should defend 4chan. /LGBT/ has been one of the most active boards there for over a decade. Calling /lit/ emotionally and mentally stunted is ridiculous. /fit/ is one of the most egalitarian venues on the internet. People in this thread are reducing all of 4chan to a board meant not to be taken seriously (/b/) and a containment board intended to keep far-right conservative discussions off of other boards (/pol/). Then they're somehow contorting the offensiveness of what goes on at those two boards as evidence that they can't be counter-cultural because "true" counter-culture apparently can't be offensive?
saiya-jin 4y ago
You are most probably correct about 4chan, I am not myself a visitor but seen similar references of it frequently. But - I can guarantee you that every single similar web I've seen (ie posting funny/gruesome/creative photos and videos, often from 4chan) is exactly the same. Not every single user, quiet majority still goes there for (some of the) content and discussions are ignored. But once you open them its the same mess. It wasn't dominant so much before but it is like that now. Sparks of sanity drowning in pitiful empty statements. I don't know user details but it feels like bunch of frustrated teenagers who are racing to show who is more depraved and depressed, mixed with adults who are failures in real life and ventilate their anger and hate on such places (I don't believe it works for more than few seconds but its probably as addictive as cigarettes mentally).
subsistence234 4y ago
Counterculture is when you have the same tastes, consumption habits, and political beliefs as a mid level HR manager at a Silicon Valley tech company. Counterculture is when most of your beliefs align with what the Raytheon PR pushes out. That's how you punk in 2020s.
ttyprintk 4y ago
First comment on the article: “ At 75 I am in the baby boom and I was in the counter culture. Lets just say from 1965 to 1985. The counter culture was driven by the Vietnam war. Reciprocal to the war was the peace witness inspired by the Quakers. During this same period, instances of cheap real estate and low cost apartments and free places to live existed. Also developing the skills needed for living a counter culture life were helped along by, unemployment insurance. Unemployment irregularly functioned as a cost of living help when I went back to junior college to study film and sewing.”

eddsh1994 4y ago

> The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. That's an interesting point I haven't heard of before, thanks :)

z3c0 4y ago
If you'd like to see it stratified as a full-blown fact, here's the interview where John Ehrlichman explained that it was a planned strategy to discredit Nixon's naysayers. https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/ https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/ > “You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”

wskinner 4y ago

> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought. Then it’s worth considering why the prevailing culture at the time didn’t see it that way.

linksnapzz 4y ago
We are the people who support Good Things. Therefore, anyone who opposes us is ipso facto supporting Bad Things.
- z3c0 4y ago
  Enter the Ronald Reagan presidential campaign, stage right
  - linksnapzz 4y ago
    I can't find the citation, but legend has it that as CA governor, Reagan was in his limo, and was surrounded by protestors in Berkeley. They were chanting "We are the future!" while pounding on the windows of the car. Reagan got his notepad out, and wrote "If you are the future, I'm selling all my stocks!" on a sheet of paper, and held it up to the window for them to read.
    - nebula8804 4y ago
      But that makes no sense. Didn't Reagan win due to an outpouring of support from the Boomers who at the time were those young people?
      - linksnapzz 4y ago
        Hahahahah. No. He won b/c he annoyed those people, to the delight of their parents.
        nebula8804 4y ago

graphe 4y ago

You've made a mistake that most people do with hippies. Hippies were not political. Student protestors and hippies are seen as the same thing even though they're not. Hippies didn't go to protest. 4chan is another place you mischaracterize due to the mainstream media. Social rejects go there. Of every kind. You probably ignored the fact that there's been an LGBT board for more than a decade since you don't go there.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

dudeofea 4y ago

If you're interested in a more nuanced view of hippies, read "Jester: Memoirs of a Retired Hippie" No one is objectively good because they are human after all. Hippies had good values, but also bad ones such as: uncleanliness, irresponsible drug use, parasitism, thoughtlessness, and sometimes even vanity.

scythe 4y ago

> > 4chan is generally anti-ukraine-war >The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, [...] >That contrasts sharply with 4chan’s demographics and motivations. I know I shouldn't criticize the Current War lest I be accused of supporting the Current Enemy, but I just can't help but point out the irony here. >bunch of closeted homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted [italics mine] Surely you must see the problem with this clause.

MockObject 4y ago

> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought. History is written by the winners.

everdrive 4y ago

This is really a minor point and has no bearing on the larger argument being made here, but the hippies had all sorts of terrible traits. Some “rediscovered” lost diseases such as trench foot due to a need to eschew any modern practices such as bathing. And some raised their children in broken, drug-addled homes, in search of “enlightenment.”

tonfreed 4y ago

Spoken like a true 1960s establishment thinker. Put yourself in the shoes of a WW2 veteran in the 60s. He sees his children get sucked into drug culture and protesting against the military that just 20 years ago saved the Pacific from tyranny. You turn on the news and see them making a nuisance of themselves in the streets. They're ungroomed, ugly, and do weird sex stuff. You ask yourself where you went wrong raising them and lament the collapse of society and death of American values.

at-w 4y ago
Or more objectively, they see murder rates literally doubling from 1964-1974, a rise never before seen in American history. They see a massive drug epidemic and an entirely unprecedented breakdown in the family unit that results in literally millions of children born to single mothers. They see a collapse of social institutions coinciding with an again unprecedented rise in suicides and antisocial activities. They see cities like Detroit, Newark (and to varying degrees nearly every other major city in the US) begin rapid declines that haven't been reversed to this day. Then they look to every other Western country that experienced the same "counterculture" in the same period and see these same issues to a similar or even greater extent. It is either incredibly ignorant or intentionally dishonest to pretend that the 1960s counterculture was some uniformly benevolent force for peace and love, and says a lot about the person claiming so's lack of ability to see anything outside their contemporary/status-quo perspective.
- hinkley 4y ago
  Keepin your head above water Makin’ your way if you can Temporary layoffs Good Times Easy credit ripoffs Good Times Ain’t we lucky we got ‘em? Good Times!
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  Didn't the gangs in for instance L.A. start using guns and selling drugs after they got Vietnam veterans in their ranks who had experience with all of that? (Makes one wonder what chickens will come home to roost in Russia eventually.)
4y ago

sjducb 4y ago

You can easily make the same case about 4 Chan. 4 Chan is rooted in things that are objectively good: free thought, satire and not taking anything too seriously.

jjulius 4y ago
Respectfully disagree. I'd argue that those are just fronts 4Chan hopes to hide behind so that it can remain a cesspool.
- at-w 4y ago
  Can you see how '60s establishment types might think the same about people "hiding behind" peace and love gibberish to remain a cesspool of drug pushing, adulterous freeloaders, whose success in mainstreaming drugs and hostility to social institutions objectively coincided directly with an explosion in violent crime and social issues like single motherhood, drug addiction, rioting and urban decay, all of which rose to unprecedented levels from 1965-1975 in every Western country that experienced a similar "counterculture"? That's not to make any judgement on the societal value of 4Chan vs. the 1960s counterculture. It's just that neither is/was a uniform group that can be defined as "rooted in X, Y, or Z," and people who claim they can are typically blind to the bias of their cultural perspective.
oneplane 4y ago
If only 4chan were rooted in those things. Sadly, it is rooted in only one thing: anonymised extremes. While you can stack other things on top of that, those are offshoots rather than the roots.
SoftAnnaLee 4y ago
This is a mischaracterization. 4chan was founded as a new place for Something Awful anime fans to post hentai and "loli" content after SA banned such things. It was always about contraband and bad-taste culture. The "dirtbag free speech" crowd flocked to it because of the side-effect of that initial culture being anti-moderation and being allowed to post whatever they wanted.

Perceval 4y ago

> homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels This is the counter-culture. The dominant culture opposes all of these things and makes obligatory the celebration of the opposite values. 4chan being one of the few lightly-restricted free speech zones allows for culture generation that would be censored anywhere else. Counter-culture is supposed to be edgy, just like jazz and rock were edgy, greasers/rockabilly were edgy, beatniks were edgy, hippies were edgy, disco was edgy, punks were edgy, LGBTQ was edgy, and so on. Every one of them were described by dismissive epithets just like the string you put together about how awful and contrary to decency they were.

banannaise 4y ago
> LGBTQ was edgy Aside from monogamous gay people, queerness is very much still edgy and not particularly accepted by the dominant/mainstream culture. (This is not a positive thing, but it is reality.)
- subsistence234 4y ago
  >queerness is very much still edgy Something that people advertise about themselves on their linkedin profiles in order to get better job offers is the opposite of edgy.
- savryn 4y ago
  [flagged]
- mshake2 4y ago
  >queerness is very much still edgy and not particularly accepted by the dominant/mainstream culture Being supported by advertising, movies, tv shows, signaled by major corporations and workplaces, and supported top-down by the government means its edgy and counterculture? We live in completely different realities I guess.
  - czx4f4bd 4y ago
    > Aside from monogamous gay people Where are all these ads, movies, and TV shows depicting non-monogamous queer relationships? How is the government providing this "top-down" support? Are there now tax breaks for people in poly relationships?

at-w 4y ago

"I don't think anyone will look back with fondness or positivity towards a bunch of drug-pushing, mentally stunted adulterous freeloaders that disrespect hard working people, people putting their lives on the line for their country, people devoted to their families, and the nation that allows them the freedom to exist in the first place--while jerking themselves into a froth over who's the edgiest edge lord." Even as someone who favours liberal drug laws at this point, the social upheaval of the late '60s had objectively horrific consequences for the poor in particular. The massive drug epidemic that to this day kills more Americans than the entire Vietnam War every year, the unprecedented doubling of murder rates overall in nearly every Western country from 1965-1975, and collapse of the family unit seem like more tangible downsides than a small number of what you describe as edgelords jerking themselves into a froth on a forum read by other edgelords. Nearly every major social issue of the late 20th century exploded as a direct result of hippie culture bringing drugs and hostility towards the family and social institutions into the mainstream. People often think of rising crime as the result of the 1980s crack "epidemic," but the explosion in murder rates occurred almost entirely from 1966-1975 and actually grew at a slower pace up to 1990 (outside the UK): https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/uRI8Y/1/ https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/uRI8Y/1/ The US murder rate in 1974 was exactly the same as it was at the peak of the "Crack epidemic" in 1990, and more than double the rate it was in 1964. You can still argue the benefits outweighed the costs, but it's simply ignorant to pretend 1960s counterculture was some uniformly benevolent movement for peace and love, any more than the movement you identify with 4chan is merely a benevolent movement for "national pride" or "family values." How 4chan specifically got designated the "counterculture" in this thread is questionable, but so is the inability to look beyond the status-quo, contemporary perspective of major media, academia and corporations.

joyeuse6701 4y ago
“Nearly every major social issue of the late 20th century exploded as a direct result of hippie culture bringing drugs and hostility towards the family and social institutions into the mainstream.” Sources? Wasn’t the crack epidemic more related to Contra and the breaking of the family unit due to disproportionate incarceration of black males by the government in attempt to break their political power via the selective targeting of specific drugs by the govt, i.e marijuana and crack over cocaine?

tsss 4y ago

The central idea of 4chan is that it is liberal. Not liberal in the perverted US-American re-definition of the word. Liberal as in freedom. Anyone can express their opinion freely on 4chan and that includes racists.

tablespoon 4y ago

> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought. Honestly, I think you're making the mistake of confusing your subjective view with "objectivity." Like saying your opinions and preferences are "objectively" the right ones. Also, you appear to be describing your side in the most charitable way you can, those you oppose in the least charitable way, and unsurprisingly finding those you oppose wanting.

notinfuriated 4y ago

> closeted homophobic So in addition to them being homophobes, they are also closeted homosexuals? Why is it that this is such a popular insult among people here on HN? It's like this strange and incoherent insult from lefties where they think they're being supportive of gay people by calling out homophobia as bad, but also calling the homophobe gay to hurt them in some manner, which would imply that being gay is an insult. I suppose your defense might be that being gay is an insult to the homophobe, but why specifically would you call a homophobe gay, without further information? It erodes any assumption I'd have that you genuinely respect gay people if you're willing to just toss around some claims that this person or that group is gay. And if I thought someone was a gay homophobe, putting aside any argument with them I have otherwise, I'd probably feel somewhat bad for them to be in that position. Anyway, we both know that you're an edgelord. That's why you wrote that sentence. So quit hating on people who are just like you. You're like a closeted homophobe, but for 4chan edgelords.

Dig1t 4y ago

I'm not one to stick up for 4chan normally, but they are all about free thought. Mostly deplorable, but definitely free.

TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago

> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought. I tend to disagree that these are objectively good. One argument against is that any society that holds these as ideals will quickly be over run by societies that don't. Being disagreeable can have adaptive advantages.

bloaf 4y ago

The mainstream culture of the hippie's day would have said, with just as much disgust as you hold for the 4channers: > The hippies are rooted in things like naiveté, lust, drugs, immorality, communism, apathy, and atheism. There is a sense in the more liberal communities that cultures are good-by-definition. They do mental gymnastics to ensure that any harmful cultural artifacts (e.g. slavery) are explained away as "not really culture, but a product of external forces" (e.g. imperialism). I have never felt the need to do this: some cultures are on-the-whole bad, and that does not disqualify them from being cultures.

roncesvalles 4y ago

>I don’t think that anyone will look back with fondness or positivity toward a bunch of closeted homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels circle jerking themselves into a froth over who’s the edgiest edge lord. If that's your view of 4chan then the whole point of 4chan went over your head. 4chan is about irreverence of and rebellion against the current mainstream culture that if you're non-conformist in any way or hold a view that may be construed as offensive to anyone, your opinion (and person) has no value. It's a reaction to upvote/downvote culture on the Internet that rewards conformity. 4chan, famously, has a highly contemptuous opinion of Reddit. What 4chan says, self-deprecatingly, is "I will offend all your sensibilities. Oh you're still here? Ok, here's what I have to say." In my opinion (it's impossible to know for sure) most of it is pretense. There aren't actually as many racists, homophobes, sexists etc. It's satirically amplified as a form of gatekeeping.

Nursie 4y ago
And yet there really are many, and their hatred and bile spreads out across the internet, their 'fun' little things (like Q) spread out and fuck up real life too. It's a great example of how irony often doesn't really exist. Oh you were only playing at being a total arsehole ironically? That's not actually a good thing, and you've helped give cover to actual arseholes, spread their message and hatred, and now people have died. And all because you think it's fun to be edgy. Congrats.
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serf 4y ago

>That contrasts sharply with 4chan’s demographics and motivations. I don’t think that anyone will look back with fondness or positivity toward a bunch of closeted homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels circle jerking themselves into a froth over who’s the edgiest edge lord. not to defend 4chan, but this kind of categorical and imprecise summarization of a group of people is strongly similar to the things that my (very) hippy parents were told by their (very) straight-laced parents.

MacsHeadroom 4y ago
We should defend 4chan. /LGBT/ has been one of the most active boards there for over a decade. Calling /lit/ emotionally and mentally stunted is ridiculous. /fit/ is one of the most egalitarian venues on the internet. People in this thread are reducing all of 4chan to a board meant not to be taken seriously (/b/) and a containment board intended to keep far-right conservative discussions off of other boards (/pol/). Then they're somehow contorting the offensiveness of what goes on at those two boards as evidence that they can't be counter-cultural because "true" counter-culture apparently can't be offensive?

saiya-jin 4y ago

You are most probably correct about 4chan, I am not myself a visitor but seen similar references of it frequently. But - I can guarantee you that every single similar web I've seen (ie posting funny/gruesome/creative photos and videos, often from 4chan) is exactly the same. Not every single user, quiet majority still goes there for (some of the) content and discussions are ignored. But once you open them its the same mess. It wasn't dominant so much before but it is like that now. Sparks of sanity drowning in pitiful empty statements. I don't know user details but it feels like bunch of frustrated teenagers who are racing to show who is more depraved and depressed, mixed with adults who are failures in real life and ventilate their anger and hate on such places (I don't believe it works for more than few seconds but its probably as addictive as cigarettes mentally).

subsistence234 4y ago

Counterculture is when you have the same tastes, consumption habits, and political beliefs as a mid level HR manager at a Silicon Valley tech company. Counterculture is when most of your beliefs align with what the Raytheon PR pushes out. That's how you punk in 2020s.

ttyprintk 4y ago

First comment on the article: “ At 75 I am in the baby boom and I was in the counter culture. Lets just say from 1965 to 1985. The counter culture was driven by the Vietnam war. Reciprocal to the war was the peace witness inspired by the Quakers. During this same period, instances of cheap real estate and low cost apartments and free places to live existed. Also developing the skills needed for living a counter culture life were helped along by, unemployment insurance. Unemployment irregularly functioned as a cost of living help when I went back to junior college to study film and sewing.”