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On one end of the spectrum you have the people who don't give privacy any thought - they've downloaded and logged into every app under the sun and generally don
by zucked 4y ago
On one end of the spectrum you have the people who don't give privacy any thought - they've downloaded and logged into every app under the sun and generally don't care that they're being surveilled. They mindlessly consume hours of curated TikTok videos and go about their day getting a barrage of targeted ads.
And on the other end, you have… this. Buying burner phones and wearing facepaint to avoid facial recognition at a theme park. Imposing that on your _family_.
As an academic exercise I guess it's interesting, but living this way must be truly exhausting. Me? I'll continue to be somewhere in the middle of these two polar opposites. I participate in society, but I don't willingly or knowingly give away more information than is required. I obscure or block what I can, but still sign up for and use accounts that can be tied back to me. I consider success as making it difficult to tie my data together - either such that I don't fit the majority pipelines and need extra attention, or I break hamfisted techniques altogether.
- vorpalhex 4y agoYou're missing another approach: use legal coercion to clean up your data trail. Disney is in California. You have a right to request your data be deleted. Pay a firm to send them a formal deletion request every 90 days.
- zucked 4y agoI'm not a California resident so as far as I understand, that technique is not applicable in my use case.
- vorpalhex 4y agoIt's not as dead as you think it is.
- zucked 4y agoIf I read between the lines, you're suggesting that I abuse the system and request my data be deleted anyways? No thanks.
- Saturate7246 4y agoIn all fairness, it's a stretch to call it "abuse": it's not uncommon for companies to preemptively extend a legally required service to those outside of the technically required jurisdiction due to the simplicity of not needing to account for who is where and if that's acceptable within their jurisdiction at this time It's also not unreasonable to expect that more jurisdictions may eventually follow suit, and so having to dedicate resources to ensure every request comes from an applicable jurisdiction that they legally are required to handle... ...might just be less preferable than fulfilling some "delete data" requests from less demanding areas. Besides, the idea that large corporations have free unaccountable reign to abuse systems of all sorts, while individuals should be quaking in their boots or snubbing their nose at the mere possibility of inconveniencing an hourly worker under faceless brands is a little over the top, IMO. It's just a request that can be denied.
- rndgermandude 4y agoWhy would it be abuse if you just asked for the data to be deleted? As long as you do not misrepresent things and do so politely, of course. If Disney wants to spent time and money and reputation to figure out if they legally need to delete the data they collected about you and only do so when that's the case, then that's their choice. Same as it was their choice to collect data in the first place. If they instead want to be nice and consumer-orientated, as they like their public image to suggest, or at least save some bucks, then they will hit the delete button. They gotta have such button by now anyway for legal requests from Californians.
- genocidicbunny 4y ago> As an academic exercise I guess it's interesting, but living this way must be truly exhausting. Especially because it's not sufficient against a motivated adversary. Disney wants the data, but they're not going to expend extra effort to catch the few people that slip through, it's not worth it to them. For example, Disney could be using gait recognition in addition to all the other stuff they do, and that could significantly help to tie together activities; But this is not economical to implement right now,
- zucked 4y agoI could imagine that certain people would have a risk profile that might necessitate this kind of behavior -- but that kind of person wouldn't turn around and blog about it 1.) calling attention to it 2.) giving Disney more pieces to the puzzle if they were motivated enough to solve it. You're right - the average person doesn't need to have that kind of stance. Even if they were a real target, much higher value targets slip through the cracks all the time. We're not nearly as good at data processing as we think (yet).
- graphe 4y agoWhy is it exactly economical for China, but not Disney? They already have the video. They can do it at any time. They have night vision and lots of other tech so I doubt expenses will stop them.
- graphe 4y agoI think it was excessive. He didn't need a burner phone, or worried about his car. He could have probably gone there, said I only have a flip phone or had paint to look like he was old and can't use a phone. Honestly this sounds like fun to impose on your family. We're going to hide from Disney tracking! We're getting a fancy Uber, everyone gets a radio, and we're painting our faces! Yes you can pain your arms too kids!
- wintogreen74 4y agoWhen were you last at Disneyland? While you may not need a phone to enter, there's no other way to fastpass, check wait times (without actually walking to the ride), schedule <anything>... It would be like paying for high speed and throttling to dial-up
- altacc 4y agoI'd add to your list: being aware of how this data is used and thinking before interacting with algorithmic content & advertising. Having worked in advertising during a younger & less jaded period of my life, knowing the aims and tactics they use helps reduce their effectiveness. Eliminating tracking for other, more nefarious uses, is very difficult and largely impractical against a motivated enough opponent. This is where we need governments to reign in corporate interests and human rights & privacy advocates to reign in the governments as much as possible, as they will happily increase surveillance as much as they can, in the name of security and a quite life.
- autoexec 4y ago> Having worked in advertising during a younger & less jaded period of my life, knowing the aims and tactics they use helps reduce their effectiveness. It's best to be aware of what they're doing and how, but I'm not sure how much it helps protect us. I can't seem to find it now, but I'm pretty sure I've seen research saying that awareness doesn't offer much defense. Our brains are simply susceptible to certain attacks and like an optical illusion that can't be unseen even when you know what's wrong, we're still influenced to some degree by the kinds of manipulations commonly used by advertisers.
- JohnFen 4y ago> but living this way must be truly exhausting. Indeed. I care a lot about this stuff, but my solution isn't to go to extremes to evade it. I just avoid it. For instance, there's zero chance I'd set foot on a Disney property, specifically because of these issues.
- mixmastamyk 4y agoYes, and much less exhausting than a day at a theme park. But I'm sad for the kids, who don't deserve this surveillance or else.
- brmgb 4y ago> I care a lot about this stuff Honest question, why? I am generally favourable to limiting the tracking we allow companies to perform at the legislative level because I'm pretty sure they are going to end up doing something nefarious to some group at some point going after a quick buck. I don't think the government should hold more than necessary because I fear what they can find in the aggregate. But on a personnal level? What do you gain from going to extreme to avoid the surveillance you think you know? It seems to be a hassle with no upside.
- sockaddr 4y agoBuran’s Razor I’m not exactly sure why Disney wants to track the fuck out of me right now, but if they value my information for some reason maybe I should too. Maybe someday I’ll find out why they wanted my information, better be prepared now.
- JohnFen 4y agoI don't go to extremes. That was the point of my comment. I do avoid having data collected about me to a large degree, though, mostly by avoiding things that involve data collection where reasonably possible. So I won't go to a Disney property, I don't use SaaS services, etc. Once my current smartphone breaks, I won't be getting another smartphone. Why? Simply because I don't like being spied on and resent the constant attempts at doing so. It's really no more complicated than that. Well, there are a few other aspects (such as that none of the companies who are involved in the domestic surveillance industry are trustworthy), but "I don't want to be spied on" is the main thing.
- cyberlyra 4y ago(Original author here.) Yes, living this way is sometimes exhausting. I don't expect others to do what I do. I often go to extremes to reveal how complicated opting out actually is, in an effort to point the way to an alternative path that doesn't require all this surveillance. There's more about that here: https://www.optoutproject.net/about-the-opt-out-project/ https://www.optoutproject.net/about-the-opt-out-project/
- russdill 4y agoSurveillance technology will only improve. Trying to live this way will become impossible. The only solution is regulation.
- cyberlyra 4y agoAs long as it's not that senator who asked Zuckerberg to "shut down finsta"... ;)
- wintogreen74 4y agoWhat do you think will be a more effective push towards regulation: demonstrating & publicizing the pernicious privacy impacts like this, or passively sitting around and waiting for it to just happen?
- flutas 4y agoQuick note: In your post you say the wristbands are "infrared" > not on a wristband which is subject to infrared detection throughout the parks in Florida. They use NFC for close range, RFID for longer range, and as of the new ones Bluetooth as well. Though...as far as I know most of the positional data from this is garbage and was thrown out in the past few years. They are also most likely (I think they are but can't confirm) using phone WiFi signals for triangulation throughout the park to detect guest flow patterns.
- caddemon 4y agoThey've used magic bands for overall guest flow in the past with some success but you're probably right that they use phones now. With the new fast pass system (Genie+) and the virtual queues they introduced for the most popular rides, it's pretty essential to be using the Disney app while at the parks now. I did notice that they've gotten better and better at automatically assigning ride photos to your account and things of that nature over the last 5 years. I assume it is a shift to the phone tracking because the magic bands definitely didn't have the best resolution for that kind of thing. They still market magic bands somewhat heavily though and they're still the primary way people tap into fast pass lane, some of the restaurant reservations, etc. Plus they can still be used as room keys and to charge purchases to your room if you are staying on property. It might be more of a psychological thing than a tech thing at this point, but I feel like magic bands will be around in some form for quite a while still.
- ohthehugemanate 4y agoyes it sounds amazingly hard. but then , opting out doesn't have to be an all or nothing. And it doesn't have to be all at once. Small steps are much better than no steps! this post (same author) talks about how to he strategic and selective about your opt outs. Not everyone has to be an extremist! https://www.optoutproject.net/the-secrets-to-my-success/ https://www.optoutproject.net/the-secrets-to-my-success/
- dylan604 4y agoJust be an über fan and wear a Goofy mask, and your family can wear other character masks. Security: "um sir? we have an unusual number of Goofies today. i think something is going on!"
- philsnow 4y agoAdults aren't allowed to wear costumes in the park. You can wear clothing and accessories that strongly suggests a character[0], but no costumes. (I guess this is because they want to avoid "Goofy" or "Donald" spouting crazy talk.) [0] and this is apparently a big thing that enthusiasts do, on the level of cosplaying, see https://disneybound.co/ https://disneybound.co/ and search term is "disneybounding"
- oneoff786 4y agoI believe there is only one goofy at a time, ever.
- khazhoux 4y agoReminds me of RMS. Pulling at the extremes. (this is a compliment)
- triyambakam 4y agoI find it weird to even go to a theme park at all if this is their threat model.
- triyambakam 4y agoRegarding exhausting, here's a quote from a different blog post of theirs describing how to avoid surveillance in person purchases: > I once took about 20 minutes at a Target checkout trying to get enough cash from the till to buy Christmas gifts for my kids and nephews. Then there was the time I held a bunch of kids' books at the counter at Barnes and Noble and drove around for 15 minutes until I found an ATM open on a Sunday evening in NJ. Getting cash out before a kid-related purchase is basically second nature to me now.
- Asooka 4y agoATMs aren't 24/7 in the USA?
- JohnFen 4y agoI'm on board with paying cash, but this person was just doing it badly. A little planning ahead removes most of those problems.
- p1necone 4y agoYeah - this seems ridiculous, and defeats the goal of privacy too. If you pay for everything with cash surely it's much easier to just get a bulk amount of cash out periodically. If you go to the nearest ATM to withdraw just enough to buy whatever you're buying every time you're out that's almost as much information for someone trying to surveil you as if you'd paid with a card at the store. Also, getting the cash out at the till to buy stuff at the same store is even more pointless. That's just paying with your card with an annoying extra step.
- cyberlyra 4y agoOP here: For context, the cash is to stop corporate databases from knowing I have children. It's not for obfuscating everything. https://www.optoutproject.net/how-to-keep-your-pregnancy-private/ https://www.optoutproject.net/how-to-keep-your-pregnancy-pri...
- 4y ago
- thewebcount 4y ago> living this way must be truly exhausting Maybe, but so is constantly being bombarded with ads, offers, etc. when you're trying to do something else. And the tracking is mainly to power those things.
- DougN7 4y agoI very much doubt you get fewer ads - they’re just less personalized.
- thewebcount 4y agoPart of blocking tracking is just outright blocking ads, so yes, I definitely get fewer ads. Also, I'm able to see more content. My spouse often finds they can't access some random article (or not all of it) but it works fine for me with my extreme blocking.
- judge2020 4y agoDoesn't this do nothing for the cause of legislating away personalized ads, though? Not wanting ads at all is different from being a consumer of non-personalized ads and buying stuff from them when it's still relevant so that companies can still survive without your personal data when it's regulated.
- thewebcount 4y agoI don’t know the answer to your question, but I know that in 30+ years of browsing the web, I have literally never once intentionally clicked on an ad of any sort. (I have been tricked into clicking on a few, and done a few by accident, of course.) If I ever saw an ad that had something interesting in it, I would open a new window and enter the domain name by hand, anyway. But I’m weird that way.
- benced 4y agoI would bet that upwards of 90% of people on this thread outright block ads.
- monksy 4y ago> As an academic exercise I guess it's interesting, but living this way must be truly exhausting. Me? I agree with the gist what what you're saying. My concern involves the invasive data collection of biometrics [face data] and IDs. It's a concern over why is it needed, and why are they so forceful in collecting it. Face rec- The TSA and the airlines are trying to push this as if it's required. (There a lot of documents and internal communication showing it's not). Why do they need this, or are our IDs not secure enough? Was their existing process not enough? Porn- Lousiana is trying to push for auths via your id online. Other orgs are trying to get copies of your license. Is this important for their operation? Is it important for them to keep access to this info just for the "societal harm" that is claimed over content that is age restricted? Another piece why is my data being non-consentually gobbled up by the creeps over at Clearview AI? Why is the MSG entertainment group trying to look for a reason to ban me before I enter? All of this demonstrates a one sided demand for this data without having any usable benefit for the people that the consent is being taken from.
- r00fus 4y agoI mean, you could, like, just avoid Disneyland. I haven't been there since I was a kid and honestly I don't think my kids would care one way or another if they ever visited. (Now if you had to do this at Legoland, I'd be honestly disappointed) We also haven't bought any "smart" TVs or IOT, or anything Alexa/Siri/etc -enabled. At some point those kinds of purchases will be required, but I'll keep looking for non-invasive alternatives including... not participating.
- wintogreen74 4y agodo you own a smart phone?
- tzs 4y agoSome people spend so much time making sure no one can see what they do that they don't have time to do the kind of things that make anyone else want to see what they do.
- grishka 4y agoI'm also somewhere in between the two types. I don't like being tracked, so I do limit tracking as much as I could for as long as things stay convenient for me and everyone else. I do run some form of ad blocking on all my devices. I do have third-part cookies disabled with a few exceptions for sites that do legit need them. But, I also have multiple loyalty apps installed on my phone, which is a stock, non-rooted Google Pixel. I also use VKontakte, Instagram and Twitter. With my IRL identity. My attitude is simple: yes, of course there still are endless ways to track me for all I care, but — what use is that tracking if there is zero technical possibility to non-consensually shove the products of processing that personalized information into me to persuade me into something? In other words, there probably still are ads creepily targeted at me, but they never reach my eyes. And with this I'm perfectly fine. It feels like there's a distinct type of person who would go to great lengths to stick to some principle for the sake of sticking to that principle. Some people use Linux because they legitimately enjoy it and the tinkering that comes with it. But others use Linux because they have a principle that they must only use free software. I'm sure everyone on HN knows at least one such person. They hate it, they constantly tell everyone how this and that doesn't work with their setup so they can't fully participate in the society, but don't you dare tell them to, uh, "maybe look into other OSes that just work out of the box if you don't like Linux and its way of doing things". The author is most probably like this.
- frollo 4y agoTo be honest, this also makes you stand out. Maybe Disney doesn't really care, but when I worked on people's data a bunch of "ghosts" entering our system without really leaving a trace would raise all kind of eyebrows and maybe even get a team assigned to them to find out what was going on (to be honest, one of my tasks was to find out malicious actors, and this is exactly the kind of behaviour you expect from them). At this point, surveillance is so massive that not leaving a trace is a trace of its own.