5 ms·

Because no one needs to change the way they act around you. Christianity and Catholicism are strongly majority groups in the US. You were already treated as a C

Because no one needs to change the way they act around you. Christianity and Catholicism are strongly majority groups in the US. You were already treated as a Christian because that's what the majority of our society is based on.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
irrational 4y ago
No, where I live you are considered to be a freak if you are religious. Announcing that you have joined a religion is like announcing you are trans in Alabama 50 years ago.
- undersuit 4y ago
  OK, well I live in Montana and I still have arguments with people with Confederate state tattoos on their arms. Where do you live?
- BobbyJo 4y ago
  Would you have a high likelihood of experiencing physical violence or death for being religious where you live? If not, then this is pointlessly hyperbolic.
  - irrational 4y ago
    No, but you would be discriminated against. Announcing you are religious would be the quickest way to be sidelined on projects and slowly forced out of the company. Announcing that your are LGBTQ is the quickest way to advance in the company and receive accolades. And this is a Fortune 100 company that nearly everyone on the planet has heard of. Where I live, LGBTQ is very much the mainstream and the most acceptable lifestyle.
    - BobbyJo 4y ago
      > No, but you would be discriminated against. That doesn't mean anything. Discrimination is a matter of degree. Everyone gets discriminated against pretty often to lesser degrees. If you tell me about your horoscope I'll roll my eyes and probably not want to hang out with you very much because of your spiritual beliefs. Are people refusing to sell you good and services? Calling you names? Throwing bricks through your windows? Is it putting more of a damper on you living a happy life than the occasional moment of discomfort because someone thinks something you think is dumb? People think lots of my beliefs are dumb, and that's fine, as long as I can go about my day. > Announcing that your are LGBTQ is the quickest way to advance in the company and receive accolades. First, I doubt a gay new hire can reach C suite with nothing but a couple of rainbows and dildos for qualifications. Second, office politics are crappy, but you either cope or move on, with maybe a lawsuit if you have a legal leg to stand on.
  - Dig1t 4y ago
    Agree with the sibling you would have a much higher chance of being discriminated against. Particularly in an interview. If you were wearing a cross necklace or some other visible indicator of your membership in Christianity, you would be way more likely to be turned down for a job in the Bay Area. Same as you would have been discriminated against for being trans, gay, or black 30 years ago.
    - BobbyJo 4y ago
      And this is based on? Having worked in the Bay for ~9 years I never met anyone that cared what religion a fellow employee was. So if we're just running off anecdotes and impressions, there's mine.
      - fragmede 4y ago
        This is such a known situation that HBO's Silicon Valley did a whole bit on it in the show. Be thankful you've managed to avoid it in your 9 years in the valley! https://www.huffpost.com/entry/silicon-valley-episode-christian-tech_n_5adf58e3e4b061c0bfa243fc https://www.huffpost.com/entry/silicon-valley-episode-christ...
        BobbyJo 4y ago
        You're using a huffpost article about an episode of a satirical comedy show to prove discrimination. An article that contains the quote: "However, Cheatham said she doesn’t think this means Christians ― particularly conservative Christians ― are being persecuted for their beliefs." That is a poor basis for believing widespread, asymmetrical, discrimination is happening. I would honestly take an anecdote over that.
        fragmede 4y ago
        I'm using to prove that the allegation, that people are careful being 'out' as a Christian' exists, not to prove that the religious discrimination, which would be illegal, exists. Your point is that it couldn't possibly exist because you've never even heard of such a thing. I'm saying that it's entirely possible for it to exist, because everyone else seems to have heard of it to the point that a popular TV chose to lampoon it.
  - not_a_shill 4y ago
    I don't think likelihood of violence from a belief has much to do with counterculture status, moreso that the people that don't like queer people are more violent than the other way around.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  No, what you experience is people who personally aren't pro-religion, often for reasons of personal experience. It's nothing like the brave people hosting home churches in China, or an even better example, the people telling their stories in the bible, where the entire culture/government and it's moral basis is against your religion.
- ldh0011 4y ago
  This is patently absurd. I'm neither trans nor religious but hypothetically I'd much rather announce that I joined a religion anywhere in the US than announce being trans in the small town where my grandparents live today. Let alone Alabama 50 years ago. Yes in very progressive environments you will get more support for announcing the later but that's because being in the later group is actually a challenge while religion has built up a reputation for maligning groups of people for things out of their control and for generally anti-scientific beliefs. Being part of a group that largely denies evolution and climate change is obviously not going to grant you any favors in groups with an academic (especially STEM) background.
scottLobster 4y ago
Or no one feels like it's a change worth celebrating, whereas there's a strong streak of culture (particularly in more liberal areas) that makes congratulating trans people on their transition/gay people coming out of the closet a social obligation even if you're neither trans nor gay. It's almost gotten to the level of congratulating a couple for having an infant. If you don't think it's worth celebrating you're seen as an asshole. My wife and I are fairly traditional in that I work full time and she's a housewife/mother. Most people are mildly surprised that she doesn't work, and there's definitely been the occasional awkward social interaction where she was clearly being judged by other women (notably non-parents) for that decision. This is in an extremely blue city, I imagine if we moved out even into the suburbs things would shift. Counter-culture is location-dependent.
User23 4y ago
Catholic teaching is that men cannot become women and women cannot become men. Catholic teaching is that lying is sinful. Practicing the Catholic faith by saying "I'm sorry, but I can't 'use your pronouns' because that would be a lie by falsely saying you're a woman when you can't be" will get you reprimanded or fired at most any major US company.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  Do you cast judgement on people that color their hair when it gets gray? Do you cast judgement on people that try and change their body by dieting/exercising?
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  I'm not catholic so please help me out here. If you cannot use requested pronouns, does your religion also ban you from using nicknames? Is it okay for you to be called User23? Is it okay to say someone's cat is cute even if you don't really care for cats? What do you do if your partner asks if they look good or bad in something?
  - User23 4y ago
    > I'm not catholic so please help me out here. These are all reasonable questions. I'll answer as best as I can, but please understand that I'm not any kind of formal authority. > If you cannot use requested pronouns, does your religion also ban you from using nicknames? Is it okay for you to be called User23? I don't know of any Catholic doctrine that says people can't use pseudonyms, nicknames, or even change their name altogether. > Is it okay to say someone's cat is cute even if you don't really care for cats? What do you do if your partner asks if they look good or bad in something? Is it a lie, which is to say a falsehood told with the intent to deceive? Then yes it's wrong. Wouldn't you want to be told the truth if you in fact looked bad? Wouldn't you want to know that when you're told that you look good that you really do? Personally, supposing I didn't think the cat was cute, I wouldn't say I thought it was. I would most likely treat it as a good opportunity to say nothing on the subject. Some theologians put forth a doctrine of "mental reservation"[1] which somehow makes lying OK, but I have to admit I'm not capable of the necessary mental gymnastics in any but the most clear cut cases. [1] https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm
throwaway_l33t 4y ago
> no one needs to change the way they act around you. This is only because Catholics and Christians often don’t mention when workplace behaviors make them uncomfortable. I’ve been in multiple situations where coworkers have used names of God as expletives or made jokes about things I consider holy. And if you’re a Catholic and “trad” and planning lunch with colleagues, things like “is it Friday” or “is it a Friday in Lent” would affect others (except that, today, there’s a lot of vegetarian options for independent reasons).
- undersuit 4y ago
  Abstinence is a form of penance. Frankly if the office doesn't bend over backwards for your self-flagellation every week I'm OK with it. Are you demanding that the entire office fast with you if they can't find a pescatarian option?
  - throwaway_l33t 4y ago
    You missed the point: if I’m planning lunch with my friends and they want to go to barbecue on Friday, I’m going to be suggesting an alternative so I can get something to eat too. Just like we had to plan lunches around my Jain, Jewish and Muslim coworkers dietary restrictions. So, in fact, some people will have to do something different to include me in some of their activities.
    - undersuit 4y ago
      Just go to confession afterwards, it's not a carnal sin, and it would remove your self-imposed inconvenience on your coworkers.
- ticviking 4y ago
  The Orthodox Christian fasting rules are complex enough that people have occasionally assumed I'm vegan because I am roughly 1/2 the days of the year. The other fun one is if you actually try and pray the hours and ask the same accommodations your Muslim colleagues receive so you can pray the office.
- 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

irrational 4y ago

No, where I live you are considered to be a freak if you are religious. Announcing that you have joined a religion is like announcing you are trans in Alabama 50 years ago.

undersuit 4y ago
OK, well I live in Montana and I still have arguments with people with Confederate state tattoos on their arms. Where do you live?
BobbyJo 4y ago
Would you have a high likelihood of experiencing physical violence or death for being religious where you live? If not, then this is pointlessly hyperbolic.
- irrational 4y ago
  No, but you would be discriminated against. Announcing you are religious would be the quickest way to be sidelined on projects and slowly forced out of the company. Announcing that your are LGBTQ is the quickest way to advance in the company and receive accolades. And this is a Fortune 100 company that nearly everyone on the planet has heard of. Where I live, LGBTQ is very much the mainstream and the most acceptable lifestyle.
  - BobbyJo 4y ago
    > No, but you would be discriminated against. That doesn't mean anything. Discrimination is a matter of degree. Everyone gets discriminated against pretty often to lesser degrees. If you tell me about your horoscope I'll roll my eyes and probably not want to hang out with you very much because of your spiritual beliefs. Are people refusing to sell you good and services? Calling you names? Throwing bricks through your windows? Is it putting more of a damper on you living a happy life than the occasional moment of discomfort because someone thinks something you think is dumb? People think lots of my beliefs are dumb, and that's fine, as long as I can go about my day. > Announcing that your are LGBTQ is the quickest way to advance in the company and receive accolades. First, I doubt a gay new hire can reach C suite with nothing but a couple of rainbows and dildos for qualifications. Second, office politics are crappy, but you either cope or move on, with maybe a lawsuit if you have a legal leg to stand on.
- Dig1t 4y ago
  Agree with the sibling you would have a much higher chance of being discriminated against. Particularly in an interview. If you were wearing a cross necklace or some other visible indicator of your membership in Christianity, you would be way more likely to be turned down for a job in the Bay Area. Same as you would have been discriminated against for being trans, gay, or black 30 years ago.
  - BobbyJo 4y ago
    And this is based on? Having worked in the Bay for ~9 years I never met anyone that cared what religion a fellow employee was. So if we're just running off anecdotes and impressions, there's mine.
    - fragmede 4y ago
      This is such a known situation that HBO's Silicon Valley did a whole bit on it in the show. Be thankful you've managed to avoid it in your 9 years in the valley! https://www.huffpost.com/entry/silicon-valley-episode-christian-tech_n_5adf58e3e4b061c0bfa243fc https://www.huffpost.com/entry/silicon-valley-episode-christ...
      - BobbyJo 4y ago
        You're using a huffpost article about an episode of a satirical comedy show to prove discrimination. An article that contains the quote: "However, Cheatham said she doesn’t think this means Christians ― particularly conservative Christians ― are being persecuted for their beliefs." That is a poor basis for believing widespread, asymmetrical, discrimination is happening. I would honestly take an anecdote over that.
        fragmede 4y ago
        I'm using to prove that the allegation, that people are careful being 'out' as a Christian' exists, not to prove that the religious discrimination, which would be illegal, exists. Your point is that it couldn't possibly exist because you've never even heard of such a thing. I'm saying that it's entirely possible for it to exist, because everyone else seems to have heard of it to the point that a popular TV chose to lampoon it.
- not_a_shill 4y ago
  I don't think likelihood of violence from a belief has much to do with counterculture status, moreso that the people that don't like queer people are more violent than the other way around.
ROTMetro 4y ago
No, what you experience is people who personally aren't pro-religion, often for reasons of personal experience. It's nothing like the brave people hosting home churches in China, or an even better example, the people telling their stories in the bible, where the entire culture/government and it's moral basis is against your religion.
ldh0011 4y ago
This is patently absurd. I'm neither trans nor religious but hypothetically I'd much rather announce that I joined a religion anywhere in the US than announce being trans in the small town where my grandparents live today. Let alone Alabama 50 years ago. Yes in very progressive environments you will get more support for announcing the later but that's because being in the later group is actually a challenge while religion has built up a reputation for maligning groups of people for things out of their control and for generally anti-scientific beliefs. Being part of a group that largely denies evolution and climate change is obviously not going to grant you any favors in groups with an academic (especially STEM) background.

scottLobster 4y ago

Or no one feels like it's a change worth celebrating, whereas there's a strong streak of culture (particularly in more liberal areas) that makes congratulating trans people on their transition/gay people coming out of the closet a social obligation even if you're neither trans nor gay. It's almost gotten to the level of congratulating a couple for having an infant. If you don't think it's worth celebrating you're seen as an asshole. My wife and I are fairly traditional in that I work full time and she's a housewife/mother. Most people are mildly surprised that she doesn't work, and there's definitely been the occasional awkward social interaction where she was clearly being judged by other women (notably non-parents) for that decision. This is in an extremely blue city, I imagine if we moved out even into the suburbs things would shift. Counter-culture is location-dependent.

User23 4y ago

Catholic teaching is that men cannot become women and women cannot become men. Catholic teaching is that lying is sinful. Practicing the Catholic faith by saying "I'm sorry, but I can't 'use your pronouns' because that would be a lie by falsely saying you're a woman when you can't be" will get you reprimanded or fired at most any major US company.

ROTMetro 4y ago
Do you cast judgement on people that color their hair when it gets gray? Do you cast judgement on people that try and change their body by dieting/exercising?
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
I'm not catholic so please help me out here. If you cannot use requested pronouns, does your religion also ban you from using nicknames? Is it okay for you to be called User23? Is it okay to say someone's cat is cute even if you don't really care for cats? What do you do if your partner asks if they look good or bad in something?
- User23 4y ago
  > I'm not catholic so please help me out here. These are all reasonable questions. I'll answer as best as I can, but please understand that I'm not any kind of formal authority. > If you cannot use requested pronouns, does your religion also ban you from using nicknames? Is it okay for you to be called User23? I don't know of any Catholic doctrine that says people can't use pseudonyms, nicknames, or even change their name altogether. > Is it okay to say someone's cat is cute even if you don't really care for cats? What do you do if your partner asks if they look good or bad in something? Is it a lie, which is to say a falsehood told with the intent to deceive? Then yes it's wrong. Wouldn't you want to be told the truth if you in fact looked bad? Wouldn't you want to know that when you're told that you look good that you really do? Personally, supposing I didn't think the cat was cute, I wouldn't say I thought it was. I would most likely treat it as a good opportunity to say nothing on the subject. Some theologians put forth a doctrine of "mental reservation"[1] which somehow makes lying OK, but I have to admit I'm not capable of the necessary mental gymnastics in any but the most clear cut cases. [1] https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm

throwaway_l33t 4y ago

> no one needs to change the way they act around you. This is only because Catholics and Christians often don’t mention when workplace behaviors make them uncomfortable. I’ve been in multiple situations where coworkers have used names of God as expletives or made jokes about things I consider holy. And if you’re a Catholic and “trad” and planning lunch with colleagues, things like “is it Friday” or “is it a Friday in Lent” would affect others (except that, today, there’s a lot of vegetarian options for independent reasons).

undersuit 4y ago
Abstinence is a form of penance. Frankly if the office doesn't bend over backwards for your self-flagellation every week I'm OK with it. Are you demanding that the entire office fast with you if they can't find a pescatarian option?
- throwaway_l33t 4y ago
  You missed the point: if I’m planning lunch with my friends and they want to go to barbecue on Friday, I’m going to be suggesting an alternative so I can get something to eat too. Just like we had to plan lunches around my Jain, Jewish and Muslim coworkers dietary restrictions. So, in fact, some people will have to do something different to include me in some of their activities.
  - undersuit 4y ago
    Just go to confession afterwards, it's not a carnal sin, and it would remove your self-imposed inconvenience on your coworkers.
ticviking 4y ago
The Orthodox Christian fasting rules are complex enough that people have occasionally assumed I'm vegan because I am roughly 1/2 the days of the year. The other fun one is if you actually try and pray the hours and ask the same accommodations your Muslim colleagues receive so you can pray the office.
4y ago