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Another hard agree. I always get a good laugh when people in queer culture claim to be living a counter culture lifestyle. Meanwhile the US state department is

Another hard agree. I always get a good laugh when people in queer culture claim to be living a counter culture lifestyle. Meanwhile the US state department is flying the queer flag at its embassies around the world and using it to agitate foreign conservative cultures. I nominate being an unapologetic white male as the counter culture of our current time. Just watch how many downvotes you'll get on any social media platform for having this position.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago
Really confused by this statement. I think queer culture can be countercultural depending. For example legislation is currently up in some states to ban dressing in a way outside your sex because drag queens exist, but even though drag queens have a tv show and a movie and stuff I'm sure it'll also probably scoop a butch lesbian or two or just a regular tomboy woman.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dashundchen 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - lezojeda 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - clericbob 4y ago
        Yeah, those people are parents that send their kids to catholic school.
        dang 4y ago
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      - dang 4y ago
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        blackflame7000 4y ago
        [flagged]
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    Why the scare quotes? Be specific.
  - lezojeda 4y ago
    >There’s routine cases of institutional actors like teachers and their unions trying to groom kids into being “trans”, without talking to the parents. Can you cite more than one example when and where this has happened?
    - throwawayacc6 4y ago
      [dead]
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    I mean I'm talking about current laws on proposal to ban people from dressing differently without saying "only drag queens". The letter of the law bans butch lesbians and tomboys. These are adults.
- dogleash 4y ago
  Legal status is terrible standard for whether something is counter culture. Outlawing something is neither necessary nor sufficient to be counterculture. Some legal and cultural boundaries overlap, some are orthogonal. There are a great many subcultures that would like legal boundaries shifted, and when they care enough they become interest groups participating in the democratic process. Even the blandest bland blandy that ever blanded is not going to agree with all the laws and societal boundaries being set exactly the way they are. Either that means there's no such thing as a mainstream culture, or we have to understand noisy clashes between subcultures don't make one or the other a counter culture. I think the way we're discussing that something obviously SUBculture is being confused for a COUNTERculture is an argument in OPs favor that we don't have much (highly visible) counterculture right now.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    Subculture vs counterculture makes sense. I'd be curious what counterculture is and how it differentiates from subculture then, if we're not going to measure if institutions exist that are actively trying to outlaw a culture.
    - moistly 4y ago
      A subculture is generally hidden from the mainstream culture. Few are those who display their BDSM subculture in obvious public fashion. A counterculture is in the face of the mainstream culture, trying to change the cult. It is countering the mainstream. It is activist or, at the least, unabashed with the intention of normalization.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    To expand on this, in a democracy-ish country law pretty much ALWAYS lags the cultural reality because legislatures basically never speculatively do things when it comes to cultural issues, they wait for enough people to want something for it to be an issue worth of the political platform. You might get some extremists pushing the envelope by catering to an extreme minority but even then they won't really be far out in front of the pack.
mrcrumb1 4y ago
[flagged]
- dnissley 4y ago
  Why did you include the word "unapologetic" in this statement?
  - mrcrumb1 4y ago
    The comment I replied to was referring to "unapologetic white males"
- alldayeveryday 4y ago
  [flagged]
- autokad 4y ago
  wtf does unapologetic white men mean? white men have to apologize for the color that they were born?
  - mrcrumb1 4y ago
    I said this in another reply but the comment I replied to was referring to "unapologetic white males"
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    In order to put white men in their place, they must understand that their opinion doesn't matter because they are white men. They cannot know adversity, they cannot have any opinion on minority issues. Therefore, if you want to participate in a discussion today your best bet is to try not to appear obviously white or male, and if you must concede that fact you ought to apologize for having an opinion in the first place, since nobody asked for it. Being an unapologetic white male would imply that you felt like you could give your opinion freely without having someone immediately attack it as invalid because of your race and gender. But I guarantee that every time a term like this gets used, the replies will imply that anyone identifying as an unapologetic white male is in fact racist. It's a great demonstration of how the counter culture has in fact become culture. Anybody who really doubts this probably doesn't have kids or spend much time around younger adults.
standardUser 4y ago
It's not that it's an unpopular position, it's that the argument is flawed and the point you're trying to make falls flat. First, you lump all of queer culture into one group, a false categorization without which your augment fails. Second, you assert that being in the overwhelmingly dominant racial group, the overwhelmingly dominant sexual orientation and the undeniably dominant gender should somehow be interpreted at "counterculture" even though the group that fits that definition is numerically larger, wealthier, and politically empowered than any other group. So if you get downvotes, it may be because you made a bad argument, not just because you come off as having an axe to grind.
- alldayeveryday 4y ago
  > First, you lump all of queer culture into one group, a false categorization without which your augment fails. In fact, I do lump them onto one group. Many subgroups inside a group. You know who I am referring to when I say queer culture. The group exists, it isn't false. Colors keep getting added to the flag. Rather than engage with reality you prefer to have useless rhetorical debates. Let's move past that. >Second, you assert that being in the overwhelmingly dominant racial group, the overwhelmingly dominant sexual orientation and the undeniably dominant gender should somehow be interpreted at "counterculture" even though the group that fits that definition is numerically larger, wealthier, and politically empowered than any other group. Culture is often not aligned with majority opinions, majority positions or majority orientations. The culture of the 60s was hippies. Most people were not hippies. Your premise is false here that culture is the same as majority, or political empowerment. I welcome a more honest response.
  - standardUser 4y ago
    The culture of the 60s was not hippies, they were the counterculture by any possible definition.
    - alldayeveryday 4y ago
      I guess I just have the view that if I am turning on the radio, the TV, watching a movie, a tv show, celebrity voices, the state department, etc - and I am seeing the counterculture, then I am actually just seeing the culture.
asveikau 4y ago
It might get downvotes because you've just said it in a very ridiculous way that indicates you're angry about it. I think there's a valid point lurking there, but you botched it. Surely you appreciate that multiple things can be true at the same time, and there are numerous ways that white men have advantages still.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > you're angry about it Why is it okay for one side to be angry, but not the other? This is such a commonly used accusation to deflate someone else's point. Making them seem emotional, and therefore illogical. FWIW, I don't think the person you're replying to looks even a little bit angry in that post. The point of view seems well considered.
  - asveikau 4y ago
    I think the anger is coming out in over the top descriptions of white males as targets of some kind of cultural conspiracy, or talking about laughing at queer folk because they're not persecuted like unapologetic straight white men ... Those are some pretty odd conclusions that he seems to have wandered into emotionally, and it's hard to think there isn't some hostility there, otherwise why bother saying all this? If you think he sounds neutral, unaffected, rational, I wonder if it's just that you already agree with him.
    - alldayeveryday 4y ago
      Your whole argument is based on the premise that statements made in anger cannot be true. And the focus on emotional state is typical ad hominem attack. You did not refute the content in any way.
      - asveikau 4y ago
        No sir, I did not say that. I conjectured that this is why someone might downvote. Because they sense the emotional component. It's also pretty absurd on its face to believe the straight white male is persecuted. I don't believe you need me to refute it.
nebula8804 4y ago
>Meanwhile the US state department is flying the queer flag at its embassies around the world and using it to agitate foreign conservative cultures. Oh come on, that is not their main goal. Its all a scam to cover up things like unchecked military spending/war, unchecked government corruption at the corporate level among many other things. There is a reason why this meme continues to float around the web. [1]:https://i.imgur.com/dmzLLKe.png https://i.imgur.com/dmzLLKe.png

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

Really confused by this statement. I think queer culture can be countercultural depending. For example legislation is currently up in some states to ban dressing in a way outside your sex because drag queens exist, but even though drag queens have a tv show and a movie and stuff I'm sure it'll also probably scoop a butch lesbian or two or just a regular tomboy woman.

zmgsabst 4y ago
[flagged]
- dashundchen 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - lezojeda 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - clericbob 4y ago
      Yeah, those people are parents that send their kids to catholic school.
      - dang 4y ago
        We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
    - dang 4y ago
      We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
      - blackflame7000 4y ago
        [flagged]
- howinteresting 4y ago
  Why the scare quotes? Be specific.
- lezojeda 4y ago
  >There’s routine cases of institutional actors like teachers and their unions trying to groom kids into being “trans”, without talking to the parents. Can you cite more than one example when and where this has happened?
  - throwawayacc6 4y ago
    [dead]
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  I mean I'm talking about current laws on proposal to ban people from dressing differently without saying "only drag queens". The letter of the law bans butch lesbians and tomboys. These are adults.
dogleash 4y ago
Legal status is terrible standard for whether something is counter culture. Outlawing something is neither necessary nor sufficient to be counterculture. Some legal and cultural boundaries overlap, some are orthogonal. There are a great many subcultures that would like legal boundaries shifted, and when they care enough they become interest groups participating in the democratic process. Even the blandest bland blandy that ever blanded is not going to agree with all the laws and societal boundaries being set exactly the way they are. Either that means there's no such thing as a mainstream culture, or we have to understand noisy clashes between subcultures don't make one or the other a counter culture. I think the way we're discussing that something obviously SUBculture is being confused for a COUNTERculture is an argument in OPs favor that we don't have much (highly visible) counterculture right now.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Subculture vs counterculture makes sense. I'd be curious what counterculture is and how it differentiates from subculture then, if we're not going to measure if institutions exist that are actively trying to outlaw a culture.
  - moistly 4y ago
    A subculture is generally hidden from the mainstream culture. Few are those who display their BDSM subculture in obvious public fashion. A counterculture is in the face of the mainstream culture, trying to change the cult. It is countering the mainstream. It is activist or, at the least, unabashed with the intention of normalization.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  To expand on this, in a democracy-ish country law pretty much ALWAYS lags the cultural reality because legislatures basically never speculatively do things when it comes to cultural issues, they wait for enough people to want something for it to be an issue worth of the political platform. You might get some extremists pushing the envelope by catering to an extreme minority but even then they won't really be far out in front of the pack.

mrcrumb1 4y ago

[flagged]

dnissley 4y ago
Why did you include the word "unapologetic" in this statement?
- mrcrumb1 4y ago
  The comment I replied to was referring to "unapologetic white males"
alldayeveryday 4y ago
[flagged]
autokad 4y ago
wtf does unapologetic white men mean? white men have to apologize for the color that they were born?
- mrcrumb1 4y ago
  I said this in another reply but the comment I replied to was referring to "unapologetic white males"
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  In order to put white men in their place, they must understand that their opinion doesn't matter because they are white men. They cannot know adversity, they cannot have any opinion on minority issues. Therefore, if you want to participate in a discussion today your best bet is to try not to appear obviously white or male, and if you must concede that fact you ought to apologize for having an opinion in the first place, since nobody asked for it. Being an unapologetic white male would imply that you felt like you could give your opinion freely without having someone immediately attack it as invalid because of your race and gender. But I guarantee that every time a term like this gets used, the replies will imply that anyone identifying as an unapologetic white male is in fact racist. It's a great demonstration of how the counter culture has in fact become culture. Anybody who really doubts this probably doesn't have kids or spend much time around younger adults.

standardUser 4y ago

It's not that it's an unpopular position, it's that the argument is flawed and the point you're trying to make falls flat. First, you lump all of queer culture into one group, a false categorization without which your augment fails. Second, you assert that being in the overwhelmingly dominant racial group, the overwhelmingly dominant sexual orientation and the undeniably dominant gender should somehow be interpreted at "counterculture" even though the group that fits that definition is numerically larger, wealthier, and politically empowered than any other group. So if you get downvotes, it may be because you made a bad argument, not just because you come off as having an axe to grind.

alldayeveryday 4y ago
> First, you lump all of queer culture into one group, a false categorization without which your augment fails. In fact, I do lump them onto one group. Many subgroups inside a group. You know who I am referring to when I say queer culture. The group exists, it isn't false. Colors keep getting added to the flag. Rather than engage with reality you prefer to have useless rhetorical debates. Let's move past that. >Second, you assert that being in the overwhelmingly dominant racial group, the overwhelmingly dominant sexual orientation and the undeniably dominant gender should somehow be interpreted at "counterculture" even though the group that fits that definition is numerically larger, wealthier, and politically empowered than any other group. Culture is often not aligned with majority opinions, majority positions or majority orientations. The culture of the 60s was hippies. Most people were not hippies. Your premise is false here that culture is the same as majority, or political empowerment. I welcome a more honest response.
- standardUser 4y ago
  The culture of the 60s was not hippies, they were the counterculture by any possible definition.
  - alldayeveryday 4y ago
    I guess I just have the view that if I am turning on the radio, the TV, watching a movie, a tv show, celebrity voices, the state department, etc - and I am seeing the counterculture, then I am actually just seeing the culture.

asveikau 4y ago

It might get downvotes because you've just said it in a very ridiculous way that indicates you're angry about it. I think there's a valid point lurking there, but you botched it. Surely you appreciate that multiple things can be true at the same time, and there are numerous ways that white men have advantages still.

rootusrootus 4y ago
> you're angry about it Why is it okay for one side to be angry, but not the other? This is such a commonly used accusation to deflate someone else's point. Making them seem emotional, and therefore illogical. FWIW, I don't think the person you're replying to looks even a little bit angry in that post. The point of view seems well considered.
- asveikau 4y ago
  I think the anger is coming out in over the top descriptions of white males as targets of some kind of cultural conspiracy, or talking about laughing at queer folk because they're not persecuted like unapologetic straight white men ... Those are some pretty odd conclusions that he seems to have wandered into emotionally, and it's hard to think there isn't some hostility there, otherwise why bother saying all this? If you think he sounds neutral, unaffected, rational, I wonder if it's just that you already agree with him.
  - alldayeveryday 4y ago
    Your whole argument is based on the premise that statements made in anger cannot be true. And the focus on emotional state is typical ad hominem attack. You did not refute the content in any way.
    - asveikau 4y ago
      No sir, I did not say that. I conjectured that this is why someone might downvote. Because they sense the emotional component. It's also pretty absurd on its face to believe the straight white male is persecuted. I don't believe you need me to refute it.

nebula8804 4y ago

>Meanwhile the US state department is flying the queer flag at its embassies around the world and using it to agitate foreign conservative cultures. Oh come on, that is not their main goal. Its all a scam to cover up things like unchecked military spending/war, unchecked government corruption at the corporate level among many other things. There is a reason why this meme continues to float around the web. [1]:https://i.imgur.com/dmzLLKe.png https://i.imgur.com/dmzLLKe.png