5 ms·

Which degrees are fake and/or in unserious academic areas?

by kentm 4y ago

nerdponx 4y ago
My own undergraduate degree program was well known among students as a relatively easy major for people who wanted good grades and didn't want to work too hard. There was an honors track for the people who wanted to work harder. I'm not sure if that was the intention, but that's certainly how it worked out.
- kentm 4y ago
  Which degree was that? I'd say that one degree program being less difficult than another doesn't make it fake or unserious though. It's just natural that some topics are harder than others. There's a qualitative difference between "unserious" and "easier" I would say.
Aunche 4y ago
Princeton, which had been previously known for grade deflation, removed the requirement to study a classical language (Latin and Ancient Greek) as part of their classics major in able to make the field more accessible to people of color. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-...
- kentm 4y ago
  Sorry, I was specifically asking about fake or unserious degrees, so its not really in line with what I was discussing. However, I would question whether removing Latin or Ancient Greek as a requirement meaningfully lowers the quality of education. I'm not privy to all criteria considered when making that decision, but it seems reasonable on the face of it to me -- removing unneeded requirements that may be a barrier to learning.
  - User23 4y ago
    In what world is being able to read the material unneeded? Latin may not be a requirement for whatever Grievance Studies, but it certainly is necessary if you want to study Virgil.
    - uoaei 4y ago
      All this hemming and hawing is still irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
  - chaxor 4y ago
    Removing requirements on the basis that they don't increase the quality of education does indeed sound reasonable, but doing it due to the color of skin would be the wrong reason to enact a policy. Racism is what we're fighting against, not trying to make policies enabling it.
  - Aunche 4y ago
    If you're studying history, you should be reading primary sources. Translations are a useful tool, but everyone makes mistakes and has their own biases, so your scholarship is compromised of you rely on them. The only jobs relevant to a classics major are Latin teachers and college professors. Obviously, you can't do the former without learning Latin. Professorships are already incredibly competitive in classics, so you'd be a lot less competitive without language proficiency. I don't think the degree is quite "fake" yet, but it's definitely getting close.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      Moreover, familiarity with Greek and Latin is very helpful even when reading English-language texts, in part due to the influence of those languages on English, and in part (I admit this is a bit circular) because English-language authors—especially the more academic-leaning ones—up until quite recently assumed they could toss in some Greek or Latin and their readers would understand it, especially if it was just a quote from some familiar text the reader surely encountered in school. I could see loosening the requirement, but if the loosening isn't simply to permit French and German (also hugely important in academics, some fields more than others, very influential on English, and also often untranslated in otherwise English texts, so, justifiable for similar reasons) as substitutes, yeah, I'd regard it as likely a step backwards.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Man, McWhorter jumps straight to the point. It's remarkable that NPR still has him on: > JOHN MCWHORTER: Thanks for having me. > SIMON: Josh Billings - I don't have to tell you, a classics professor who's the department's head of undergraduate studies - says, quote, "having new perspectives in the field will make the field better." What would be wrong with that? > MCWHORTER: Nothing at all, but I don't want to hear it until I know that it's not a way of saying through the back door that we want to have more Black students, and it's racist to expect them to learn Latin and Greek.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - tptacek 4y ago
    It's especially odd to have him on since he's not a classics professor.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- SpaceManNabs 4y ago
  That is not why princeton removed it. It was because there were classics in other regions that you could study as well. The requirement of knowing a set of “classics” isnt gone. You could study ancient china for example. It makes complete sense. If you are already a talented undergrad research that isn't going to focus on european classics in grad school (or in your Junior Papers or Senior Thesis), why make students finish an entire curriculum on ancient rome or greece? source: this was discussed during princeton reunions at a panel, or I may have heard this from a another alumnus that was a classics major, heard after the change. edit: cant reply for some reason (?) but ancient china was a mismemory. it didnt go beyond the near east and africa. still makes perfect sense if you specialize in neighbors to mediterranean.
  - Aunche 4y ago
    Ancient China is in a different department. It would make sense to allow students to choose ancient Aramaic instead of Latin, but that's not the change. You can now graduate specializing in Ancient Greek without reading a single line in Ancient Greek.
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      > You can now graduate specializing in Ancient Greek without reading a single line in Ancient Greek. Is that true? It sounds more like classical Greek literature was just removed from the core curriculum.
    - 34611 4y ago
      Aramaic wouldn't make any sense either as aramaic isn't part of european civilization. It should be latin and greek. A degree in "classics" ( the works of greco-roman civilization ) should require both latin and greek. Heck all students in american education ( K-12 ) should be taught latin at the very least. Why we stopped...
  - wl 4y ago
    Looking at the degree requirements at the moment, the option to study another language isn't in place of Greek or Latin, but rather in place of other courses. > One course must deal substantially with classical reception or comparative approaches to the ancient world; this requirement may also be fulfilled by study of another language relevant to the student’s interests (Akkadian, Modern Greek, etc., at any course level).
Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
Since this is semi-anonymous, I'll dare to say gender studies.
- kentm 4y ago
  That tends to be the common answer I hear, but I usually don't hear why its fake. What makes gender studies fake or unserious?
  - Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
    They're ideologically driven. Not so much a field of study as an agenda. Sometimes, when going through academic records of people from certain countries, I see their grades in courses like "Theory and Practice of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" or "Islamic Faith", gender students looks to me like a Western equivalent of those.
  - Aunche 4y ago
    My (admittedly uninformed) impression of contemporary gender studies is that so long as you reach them conclusion that X gender is a victim (where X isn't cis men), it matters very little what path you take to get there. This is how an obviously joke study [1] got accepted in a relatively prestigious gender studies journal. [1] http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/dog_park.pdf http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/dog_park.pdf
    - uoaei 4y ago
      It demonstrates a grave lack of faith in humanity writ large to imagine that such a description can be representative of any distinguished academic tradition.
      - Aunche 4y ago
        I'm not saying that gender studies is useless. It has obviously produced many valuable insights in the past, and I'm sure plenty of academics produce high quality scholarship in this field to this day. My point is that it makes little effort to distinguish this high quality scholarship and complete nonsense.
kabouseng 4y ago
Most of the humanities :-P

Which degrees are fake and/or in unserious academic areas?

by kentm 4y ago

Which degrees are fake and/or in unserious academic areas?

My own undergraduate degree program was well known among students as a relatively easy major for people who wanted good grades and didn't want to work too hard. There was an honors track for the people who wanted to work harder. I'm not sure if that was the intention, but that's certainly how it worked out.

kentm 4y ago
Which degree was that? I'd say that one degree program being less difficult than another doesn't make it fake or unserious though. It's just natural that some topics are harder than others. There's a qualitative difference between "unserious" and "easier" I would say.

Aunche 4y ago

Princeton, which had been previously known for grade deflation, removed the requirement to study a classical language (Latin and Ancient Greek) as part of their classics major in able to make the field more accessible to people of color. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-...

kentm 4y ago
Sorry, I was specifically asking about fake or unserious degrees, so its not really in line with what I was discussing. However, I would question whether removing Latin or Ancient Greek as a requirement meaningfully lowers the quality of education. I'm not privy to all criteria considered when making that decision, but it seems reasonable on the face of it to me -- removing unneeded requirements that may be a barrier to learning.
- User23 4y ago
  In what world is being able to read the material unneeded? Latin may not be a requirement for whatever Grievance Studies, but it certainly is necessary if you want to study Virgil.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    All this hemming and hawing is still irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
- chaxor 4y ago
  Removing requirements on the basis that they don't increase the quality of education does indeed sound reasonable, but doing it due to the color of skin would be the wrong reason to enact a policy. Racism is what we're fighting against, not trying to make policies enabling it.
- Aunche 4y ago
  If you're studying history, you should be reading primary sources. Translations are a useful tool, but everyone makes mistakes and has their own biases, so your scholarship is compromised of you rely on them. The only jobs relevant to a classics major are Latin teachers and college professors. Obviously, you can't do the former without learning Latin. Professorships are already incredibly competitive in classics, so you'd be a lot less competitive without language proficiency. I don't think the degree is quite "fake" yet, but it's definitely getting close.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Moreover, familiarity with Greek and Latin is very helpful even when reading English-language texts, in part due to the influence of those languages on English, and in part (I admit this is a bit circular) because English-language authors—especially the more academic-leaning ones—up until quite recently assumed they could toss in some Greek or Latin and their readers would understand it, especially if it was just a quote from some familiar text the reader surely encountered in school. I could see loosening the requirement, but if the loosening isn't simply to permit French and German (also hugely important in academics, some fields more than others, very influential on English, and also often untranslated in otherwise English texts, so, justifiable for similar reasons) as substitutes, yeah, I'd regard it as likely a step backwards.
rayiner 4y ago
Man, McWhorter jumps straight to the point. It's remarkable that NPR still has him on: > JOHN MCWHORTER: Thanks for having me. > SIMON: Josh Billings - I don't have to tell you, a classics professor who's the department's head of undergraduate studies - says, quote, "having new perspectives in the field will make the field better." What would be wrong with that? > MCWHORTER: Nothing at all, but I don't want to hear it until I know that it's not a way of saying through the back door that we want to have more Black students, and it's racist to expect them to learn Latin and Greek.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tptacek 4y ago
  It's especially odd to have him on since he's not a classics professor.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
SpaceManNabs 4y ago
That is not why princeton removed it. It was because there were classics in other regions that you could study as well. The requirement of knowing a set of “classics” isnt gone. You could study ancient china for example. It makes complete sense. If you are already a talented undergrad research that isn't going to focus on european classics in grad school (or in your Junior Papers or Senior Thesis), why make students finish an entire curriculum on ancient rome or greece? source: this was discussed during princeton reunions at a panel, or I may have heard this from a another alumnus that was a classics major, heard after the change. edit: cant reply for some reason (?) but ancient china was a mismemory. it didnt go beyond the near east and africa. still makes perfect sense if you specialize in neighbors to mediterranean.
- Aunche 4y ago
  Ancient China is in a different department. It would make sense to allow students to choose ancient Aramaic instead of Latin, but that's not the change. You can now graduate specializing in Ancient Greek without reading a single line in Ancient Greek.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    > You can now graduate specializing in Ancient Greek without reading a single line in Ancient Greek. Is that true? It sounds more like classical Greek literature was just removed from the core curriculum.
  - 34611 4y ago
    Aramaic wouldn't make any sense either as aramaic isn't part of european civilization. It should be latin and greek. A degree in "classics" ( the works of greco-roman civilization ) should require both latin and greek. Heck all students in american education ( K-12 ) should be taught latin at the very least. Why we stopped...
- wl 4y ago
  Looking at the degree requirements at the moment, the option to study another language isn't in place of Greek or Latin, but rather in place of other courses. > One course must deal substantially with classical reception or comparative approaches to the ancient world; this requirement may also be fulfilled by study of another language relevant to the student’s interests (Akkadian, Modern Greek, etc., at any course level).

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago

Since this is semi-anonymous, I'll dare to say gender studies.

kentm 4y ago
That tends to be the common answer I hear, but I usually don't hear why its fake. What makes gender studies fake or unserious?
- Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
  They're ideologically driven. Not so much a field of study as an agenda. Sometimes, when going through academic records of people from certain countries, I see their grades in courses like "Theory and Practice of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" or "Islamic Faith", gender students looks to me like a Western equivalent of those.
- Aunche 4y ago
  My (admittedly uninformed) impression of contemporary gender studies is that so long as you reach them conclusion that X gender is a victim (where X isn't cis men), it matters very little what path you take to get there. This is how an obviously joke study [1] got accepted in a relatively prestigious gender studies journal. [1] http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/dog_park.pdf http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/dog_park.pdf
  - uoaei 4y ago
    It demonstrates a grave lack of faith in humanity writ large to imagine that such a description can be representative of any distinguished academic tradition.
    - Aunche 4y ago
      I'm not saying that gender studies is useless. It has obviously produced many valuable insights in the past, and I'm sure plenty of academics produce high quality scholarship in this field to this day. My point is that it makes little effort to distinguish this high quality scholarship and complete nonsense.

kabouseng 4y ago

Most of the humanities :-P