5 ms·

Plenty of research doesn't need millions to do. If you're a mathematician or almost any kind of theoretician or computational scientist you need a laptop maybe

Plenty of research doesn't need millions to do. If you're a mathematician or almost any kind of theoretician or computational scientist you need a laptop maybe the odd bit of cloud time on a bigger blob of compute, in the case of mathematicians you might need chalk. The millions you do need to spend though are on private per-paper viewing of literature, thats the real mind killer. If universities just had alumni access to literature they would rapidly just become subscription library services for theory people! I can work like 3 months a year and finance literally the rest of my time on theoretical work. But only if I don't have to pay £60 to read enough of a paper to realise its a worthless piece of crap.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Ultimatt 4y ago
I should add those 3 months would also pay me about 2x better than a postdoc working fulltime in a university. Thats the level of pay disparity with industry, and the level of pointlessness of a university as an institution if you dont need a wet lab to work. A genuinely good business idea would be a virtual institution with library services.
DonaldPShimoda 4y ago
You're forgetting the cost of funding students, but also there are costs in securing prestige for your institution. The university benefits when your grants are large and plentiful, so they encourage research faculty to pursue those projects which earn more money, even if it's not exactly what they care most about.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  > You're forgetting the cost of funding students, but also there are costs in securing prestige for your institution. But why does he need students to do his own research? I made a similar calculation and went into industry. I am now at the point where I could self-fund an indefinite post-doc (with benefits) at the risk-free rate of return. By the time I would be going up for Full Professor, I'll be able to self-fund an equivalent salary -- again, at the risk-free rate. And I don't have to worry about the inevitable layoffs coming to higher-ed, tenure be damned. And I can do my Science from a ski slope or a beach instead of from some random rural town. If you want to do Science, just spend 1-2 decades in industry and save your money. If you want to lead "The $LASTNAME Lab" at "Famous University" where you have "X PhD students" and "Y post-docs", then you're going to pay for the silly prestige game by giving up actually doing Science for the rest of your life. The situation may be different for people who need wet labs, but in Math and CS here's just no reason to bust your ass to get tenure. Just bust your ass in industry instead. You'll be working for The Man instead of doing what you really want either way, I promise, and honestly industry often has more interesting problems than whatever happens to be of interest to whichever person was willing to live in an expensive boring place on a small salary while shoving their ideas into the Heilmeier Catechism.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    > You'll be working for The Man instead of doing what you really want either way, I promise As an academic who does work on my own projects all the time, I'll have to disagree. I mean, yeah I have to do things I'm not thrilled about, like advising students and filling out course evaluations. But at the same time, I only work 4 days a week, 28 weeks of the year, and those days I'm done at noon. The rest of my time I spend working on my projects, which are 100% what I'd be doing if I were to come across a billion dollars tomorrow. > If you want to do Science, just spend 1-2 decades in industry and save your money. I see this advice a lot, and it's logical. But I don't think practical. If it were, I think we'd see more people going this route, but I'm not aware of too many (well, any really). Can you point to anyone who has amassed a small fortune in industry and now is a successful independent researcher? It seems like the more popular route is to spend 1-2 decades amassing wealth and then just retire on that money. Or to invest it. You'd be what, 40+ at that time? That's a prime age for family rearing. The kids' college funds need to be swelling at that point. At such a critical time in a family, who in their right mind would leave a lucrative career to be an independent researcher, a job path that is largely reserved for independently wealthy people. If you want to blow your family's nest egg at 40 by pursuing an independent research agenda, go right ahead, but I think that's a risk most people won't take. Even if successful, it's not going to have a positive ROI (that's not what research is about). That's why researchers spend other peoples money and not their own.
    - thwayunion 4y ago
      > But at the same time, I only work 4 days a week, 28 weeks of the year, and those days I'm done at noon. TBH I have no idea what number of "bullshit hours" I work, but I spend the vast majority of my time working on things I'd probably be doing anyways. I certainly think what I'm working on is more interesting than what I'd almost certainly be doing if I had accepting one of my TT offers. > If it were, I think we'd see more people going this route, but I'm not aware of too many (well, any really). Can you point to anyone who has amassed a small fortune in industry and now is a successful independent researcher? This largely depends on how you define success. They certainly aren't doing things like putting together performance bonus packets or playing the peer review game, so if you look to things like bonuses/promotions or journal papers in prestige venues they're probably not "successful". But isn't the goal to get off the bullshit ladder? You don't really think the prestige publishing game is anything other than BS make-work, do you? ;-) > It seems like the more popular route is to spend 1-2 decades amassing wealth and then just retire on that money. Sure. If your version of "what i would do with a billion dollars" involves lots of slopes and beaches then why not? What's wrong with this? > Or to invest it. You'd be what, 40+ at that time? That's a prime age for family rearing. The kids' college funds need to be swelling at that point. I know a lot of folks from my PhD cohort who went this route and took Professor of Practice positions for their kids' college years. > If you want to blow your family's nest egg at 40 Who said anything about blowing? The principal should continue growing, just a bit slower since you're spending some of the interest... > At such a critical time in a family, who in their right mind would leave a lucrative career to be an independent researcher, a job path that is largely reserved for independently wealthy people. A STEM PhD, after 10-20 years in tech or finance, IS an independently wealthy person... that's the whole point.
ProjectArcturis 4y ago
There is, of course, sci-hub, if your morality aligns with that.
avn2109 4y ago
Do you not have access to Sci-Hub somehow? Or have I misunderstood the problem here?
- AlotOfReading 4y ago
  Sci-hub has become significantly less useful because all new uploads are paused pending resolution of a court case in India. That includes anything published in the last year. A large portion of a working academic's reading load will be keeping up with recently published literature.
  - kirsebaer 4y ago
    But for papers published recently you can email an author and they will send you a PDF.
    - AlotOfReading 4y ago
      Just imagine how useful search engines would be if you had to email someone every time you wanted to click a link. Just keeping up with the literature is typically a dozen or more papers a week, plus skimming dozens to hundreds more if you're actively doing research. That's a lot of email and it's a lot of unnecessary burden for the very nice people who reply. Piracy and open access are the only scalable alternatives to institutional access.
jltsiren 4y ago
It depends on the field, but I don't think access to papers is such a big deal anymore. Preprints and open access mandates have become popular enough that relevant papers are usually available for free through legitimate channels. When I'm working from home, I rarely bother starting a VPN to access a paper, because it's usually not worth the effort. A bigger issue that affects independent researchers (and academics who are the only ones working on some topic in their department) is the social context of doing research. Even if you are a big name in your field, your ideas are probably not that special, and neither is your ability to execute them. For most researchers, the real value comes from having regular discussions with other experts.
meetingthrower 4y ago
Cannot you just get a library card at the university? I live next to a university where I have no affiliation, and if I pay $150 a year I can eat all I want. (Though I do think I have to be onsite as there is no remote access.) Another trick is to sign up for the adult ed classes, or basically retiree classes to get access. I've even heard of people doing this to get cheap health insurance!!!

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Ultimatt 4y ago

I should add those 3 months would also pay me about 2x better than a postdoc working fulltime in a university. Thats the level of pay disparity with industry, and the level of pointlessness of a university as an institution if you dont need a wet lab to work. A genuinely good business idea would be a virtual institution with library services.

DonaldPShimoda 4y ago

You're forgetting the cost of funding students, but also there are costs in securing prestige for your institution. The university benefits when your grants are large and plentiful, so they encourage research faculty to pursue those projects which earn more money, even if it's not exactly what they care most about.

thwayunion 4y ago
> You're forgetting the cost of funding students, but also there are costs in securing prestige for your institution. But why does he need students to do his own research? I made a similar calculation and went into industry. I am now at the point where I could self-fund an indefinite post-doc (with benefits) at the risk-free rate of return. By the time I would be going up for Full Professor, I'll be able to self-fund an equivalent salary -- again, at the risk-free rate. And I don't have to worry about the inevitable layoffs coming to higher-ed, tenure be damned. And I can do my Science from a ski slope or a beach instead of from some random rural town. If you want to do Science, just spend 1-2 decades in industry and save your money. If you want to lead "The $LASTNAME Lab" at "Famous University" where you have "X PhD students" and "Y post-docs", then you're going to pay for the silly prestige game by giving up actually doing Science for the rest of your life. The situation may be different for people who need wet labs, but in Math and CS here's just no reason to bust your ass to get tenure. Just bust your ass in industry instead. You'll be working for The Man instead of doing what you really want either way, I promise, and honestly industry often has more interesting problems than whatever happens to be of interest to whichever person was willing to live in an expensive boring place on a small salary while shoving their ideas into the Heilmeier Catechism.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > You'll be working for The Man instead of doing what you really want either way, I promise As an academic who does work on my own projects all the time, I'll have to disagree. I mean, yeah I have to do things I'm not thrilled about, like advising students and filling out course evaluations. But at the same time, I only work 4 days a week, 28 weeks of the year, and those days I'm done at noon. The rest of my time I spend working on my projects, which are 100% what I'd be doing if I were to come across a billion dollars tomorrow. > If you want to do Science, just spend 1-2 decades in industry and save your money. I see this advice a lot, and it's logical. But I don't think practical. If it were, I think we'd see more people going this route, but I'm not aware of too many (well, any really). Can you point to anyone who has amassed a small fortune in industry and now is a successful independent researcher? It seems like the more popular route is to spend 1-2 decades amassing wealth and then just retire on that money. Or to invest it. You'd be what, 40+ at that time? That's a prime age for family rearing. The kids' college funds need to be swelling at that point. At such a critical time in a family, who in their right mind would leave a lucrative career to be an independent researcher, a job path that is largely reserved for independently wealthy people. If you want to blow your family's nest egg at 40 by pursuing an independent research agenda, go right ahead, but I think that's a risk most people won't take. Even if successful, it's not going to have a positive ROI (that's not what research is about). That's why researchers spend other peoples money and not their own.
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    > But at the same time, I only work 4 days a week, 28 weeks of the year, and those days I'm done at noon. TBH I have no idea what number of "bullshit hours" I work, but I spend the vast majority of my time working on things I'd probably be doing anyways. I certainly think what I'm working on is more interesting than what I'd almost certainly be doing if I had accepting one of my TT offers. > If it were, I think we'd see more people going this route, but I'm not aware of too many (well, any really). Can you point to anyone who has amassed a small fortune in industry and now is a successful independent researcher? This largely depends on how you define success. They certainly aren't doing things like putting together performance bonus packets or playing the peer review game, so if you look to things like bonuses/promotions or journal papers in prestige venues they're probably not "successful". But isn't the goal to get off the bullshit ladder? You don't really think the prestige publishing game is anything other than BS make-work, do you? ;-) > It seems like the more popular route is to spend 1-2 decades amassing wealth and then just retire on that money. Sure. If your version of "what i would do with a billion dollars" involves lots of slopes and beaches then why not? What's wrong with this? > Or to invest it. You'd be what, 40+ at that time? That's a prime age for family rearing. The kids' college funds need to be swelling at that point. I know a lot of folks from my PhD cohort who went this route and took Professor of Practice positions for their kids' college years. > If you want to blow your family's nest egg at 40 Who said anything about blowing? The principal should continue growing, just a bit slower since you're spending some of the interest... > At such a critical time in a family, who in their right mind would leave a lucrative career to be an independent researcher, a job path that is largely reserved for independently wealthy people. A STEM PhD, after 10-20 years in tech or finance, IS an independently wealthy person... that's the whole point.

ProjectArcturis 4y ago

There is, of course, sci-hub, if your morality aligns with that.

avn2109 4y ago

Do you not have access to Sci-Hub somehow? Or have I misunderstood the problem here?

AlotOfReading 4y ago
Sci-hub has become significantly less useful because all new uploads are paused pending resolution of a court case in India. That includes anything published in the last year. A large portion of a working academic's reading load will be keeping up with recently published literature.
- kirsebaer 4y ago
  But for papers published recently you can email an author and they will send you a PDF.
  - AlotOfReading 4y ago
    Just imagine how useful search engines would be if you had to email someone every time you wanted to click a link. Just keeping up with the literature is typically a dozen or more papers a week, plus skimming dozens to hundreds more if you're actively doing research. That's a lot of email and it's a lot of unnecessary burden for the very nice people who reply. Piracy and open access are the only scalable alternatives to institutional access.

jltsiren 4y ago

It depends on the field, but I don't think access to papers is such a big deal anymore. Preprints and open access mandates have become popular enough that relevant papers are usually available for free through legitimate channels. When I'm working from home, I rarely bother starting a VPN to access a paper, because it's usually not worth the effort. A bigger issue that affects independent researchers (and academics who are the only ones working on some topic in their department) is the social context of doing research. Even if you are a big name in your field, your ideas are probably not that special, and neither is your ability to execute them. For most researchers, the real value comes from having regular discussions with other experts.

meetingthrower 4y ago

Cannot you just get a library card at the university? I live next to a university where I have no affiliation, and if I pay $150 a year I can eat all I want. (Though I do think I have to be onsite as there is no remote access.) Another trick is to sign up for the adult ed classes, or basically retiree classes to get access. I've even heard of people doing this to get cheap health insurance!!!