4 ms·

This is not what anyone else means by EEE. The Wikipedia article is good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.or

by jefftk 4y ago

This is not what anyone else means by EEE. The Wikipedia article is good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... EEE is specifically an attack on open systems: make something compatible with an open system, do a good job at it, people switch to you, extend your thing, people start using your extensions. You've moved people from an open system to your proprietary one. All of their examples [1] are in the form "offer a thing people want which is free up to a point, and then when they get to that point they won't be able to stop using it because they're hooked". This is a fine thing to talk about, but using the "EEE" terminology for it both weakens the terminology and makes it unclear what you're saying. [1] Except the Amazon delivery one, which doesn't fit the rest of the post since there's no step where they increase the charge.

JohnFen 4y ago
> Except the Amazon delivery one, which doesn't fit the rest of the post since there's no step where they increase the charge. Also, I stopped using Amazon entirely a couple of years ago now, mostly moving toward ordering directly from manufacturers. Do you know what I didn't have to give up? Fast, inexpensive shipping.
- ukd1 4y ago
  I've tried that, but it's annoying / painful to manage N different stores / tracking things / return policies / etc for the smaller things that I end up ordering easily from amazon. e.g. new PLA, paper towels, batteries, replacement kitchen utensils, a keyboard, etc. So for small regular random orders, I love amazon. What pros does off-amazon bring for you?
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    The main pro is that I don't have to deal with Amazon anymore. Their storefront is riddled with landmines/scams, they've treated me poorly, and I dislike the effect they have in society and am happy to not support that. For the sorts of things you're talking about, I just buy from local businesses (aside from PLA, which I buy directly from my favorite manufacturer). My experience has been that I've lost nothing by avoiding Amazon. It's no more of a hassle for me. If I have a problem with an order, I get better service from the company directly than from Amazon. Etc. It's all upside for me, and no downside.
xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
Indeed. I'm a bit disappointed as EEE can be very effective. A lot of businesses are formed around this strategy but few ever get to push the envelope like Microsoft did. I'm not advocating for EEE, but it is interesting. An broad analysis of EEE in tech, especially open source or "open core" projects would be very interesting to see.
nhchris 4y ago
An older phrase perfectly describes what they incorrectly call EEE: bait & switch
rektide 4y ago
I dont think it takes much courage to see how the idea extends/applies to a broader strategy, of entering a market, taking it over, and then ruining competitors. Leaving a final result of marketplace dominion, now ready for rampant exploitation. Now that no one can stop you. That this tactic happened to work for open source & standards seems like less than 50% of it's relevance to me. The general idea seems self-substantial. Of all the pieces, I think "embrace" probably requires the most fudging, the most overcoming of internal "is it really though?" in permitting ourselves to see similarity. Even "enshittification" ("of tiktok")[1] feels notably within this general pattern, of getting good to get bad. Microsoft's specific embrace was to go after standards & open source projects, but whether we select only a focus to make us naive to the strategy & how it still apploes is up to how much we want to bind our minds. [1] https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys
rvz 4y ago
I would say 'EEE' has evolved to now suffocate and undercut competitors paid offerings by USING and maintaining free and open tools and systems whilst adding proprietary extensions on top of it. This time, it is Microsoft that has gotten clever at using open source software to their advantage and offering great tools for free (or at least close to free). Competitors can't even raise their prices nor can they compete with free. Even Appget (Windows Package Manager) shut down due to the same reasons.
weaksauce 4y ago
loosely like how google made chrome and is now moving chrome to an "ad friendly/adblocker hostile" extension model after they got all the marketshare away from firefox.
IYasha 4y ago
Yeah. But I'm surprised by how many people in tech are okay with this strategy. I guess, not everyone in "tech" is Stallman's friend )

by jefftk 4y ago

JohnFen 4y ago

> Except the Amazon delivery one, which doesn't fit the rest of the post since there's no step where they increase the charge. Also, I stopped using Amazon entirely a couple of years ago now, mostly moving toward ordering directly from manufacturers. Do you know what I didn't have to give up? Fast, inexpensive shipping.

ukd1 4y ago
I've tried that, but it's annoying / painful to manage N different stores / tracking things / return policies / etc for the smaller things that I end up ordering easily from amazon. e.g. new PLA, paper towels, batteries, replacement kitchen utensils, a keyboard, etc. So for small regular random orders, I love amazon. What pros does off-amazon bring for you?
- JohnFen 4y ago
  The main pro is that I don't have to deal with Amazon anymore. Their storefront is riddled with landmines/scams, they've treated me poorly, and I dislike the effect they have in society and am happy to not support that. For the sorts of things you're talking about, I just buy from local businesses (aside from PLA, which I buy directly from my favorite manufacturer). My experience has been that I've lost nothing by avoiding Amazon. It's no more of a hassle for me. If I have a problem with an order, I get better service from the company directly than from Amazon. Etc. It's all upside for me, and no downside.

xyzzy_plugh 4y ago

Indeed. I'm a bit disappointed as EEE can be very effective. A lot of businesses are formed around this strategy but few ever get to push the envelope like Microsoft did. I'm not advocating for EEE, but it is interesting. An broad analysis of EEE in tech, especially open source or "open core" projects would be very interesting to see.

nhchris 4y ago

An older phrase perfectly describes what they incorrectly call EEE: bait & switch

rektide 4y ago

I dont think it takes much courage to see how the idea extends/applies to a broader strategy, of entering a market, taking it over, and then ruining competitors. Leaving a final result of marketplace dominion, now ready for rampant exploitation. Now that no one can stop you. That this tactic happened to work for open source & standards seems like less than 50% of it's relevance to me. The general idea seems self-substantial. Of all the pieces, I think "embrace" probably requires the most fudging, the most overcoming of internal "is it really though?" in permitting ourselves to see similarity. Even "enshittification" ("of tiktok")[1] feels notably within this general pattern, of getting good to get bad. Microsoft's specific embrace was to go after standards & open source projects, but whether we select only a focus to make us naive to the strategy & how it still apploes is up to how much we want to bind our minds. [1] https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys

rvz 4y ago

I would say 'EEE' has evolved to now suffocate and undercut competitors paid offerings by USING and maintaining free and open tools and systems whilst adding proprietary extensions on top of it. This time, it is Microsoft that has gotten clever at using open source software to their advantage and offering great tools for free (or at least close to free). Competitors can't even raise their prices nor can they compete with free. Even Appget (Windows Package Manager) shut down due to the same reasons.

weaksauce 4y ago

loosely like how google made chrome and is now moving chrome to an "ad friendly/adblocker hostile" extension model after they got all the marketshare away from firefox.

IYasha 4y ago

Yeah. But I'm surprised by how many people in tech are okay with this strategy. I guess, not everyone in "tech" is Stallman's friend )