7 ms·

Which universities engage in preventing exceptional success? Even with grade inflation, it's usually pretty easy to tell when someone is exceptionally capable/i

Which universities engage in preventing exceptional success? Even with grade inflation, it's usually pretty easy to tell when someone is exceptionally capable/intelligent/successful compared to their peers at the same institution. And the problem of grade inflation is more about universities competing for prestige (and keeping wealthy donor/legacy families happy) than about creating outcome equity.

nlavezzo 4y ago
I think it's probably earlier (elementary, middle) schools that just don't provide opportunity for kids that are very advanced to pursue materials that are actually challenging or interesting to them.
molsongolden 4y ago
I assumed the parent meant K-12 schools (in the USA) cutting gifted and talented programs. The subject of ending tracking in schools and defunding programs for high performing students has been popping up on HN every 6mo or so.
pirate787 4y ago
It's not just grade inflation, it is watering down the curriculum and creating fake degrees in unserious academic areas.
- kentm 4y ago
  Which degrees are fake and/or in unserious academic areas?
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    My own undergraduate degree program was well known among students as a relatively easy major for people who wanted good grades and didn't want to work too hard. There was an honors track for the people who wanted to work harder. I'm not sure if that was the intention, but that's certainly how it worked out.
    - kentm 4y ago
      Which degree was that? I'd say that one degree program being less difficult than another doesn't make it fake or unserious though. It's just natural that some topics are harder than others. There's a qualitative difference between "unserious" and "easier" I would say.
  - Aunche 4y ago
    Princeton, which had been previously known for grade deflation, removed the requirement to study a classical language (Latin and Ancient Greek) as part of their classics major in able to make the field more accessible to people of color. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-...
    - kentm 4y ago
      Sorry, I was specifically asking about fake or unserious degrees, so its not really in line with what I was discussing. However, I would question whether removing Latin or Ancient Greek as a requirement meaningfully lowers the quality of education. I'm not privy to all criteria considered when making that decision, but it seems reasonable on the face of it to me -- removing unneeded requirements that may be a barrier to learning.
      - User23 4y ago
        In what world is being able to read the material unneeded? Latin may not be a requirement for whatever Grievance Studies, but it certainly is necessary if you want to study Virgil.
        uoaei 4y ago
        All this hemming and hawing is still irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
      - chaxor 4y ago
        Removing requirements on the basis that they don't increase the quality of education does indeed sound reasonable, but doing it due to the color of skin would be the wrong reason to enact a policy. Racism is what we're fighting against, not trying to make policies enabling it.
      - Aunche 4y ago
        If you're studying history, you should be reading primary sources. Translations are a useful tool, but everyone makes mistakes and has their own biases, so your scholarship is compromised of you rely on them. The only jobs relevant to a classics major are Latin teachers and college professors. Obviously, you can't do the former without learning Latin. Professorships are already incredibly competitive in classics, so you'd be a lot less competitive without language proficiency. I don't think the degree is quite "fake" yet, but it's definitely getting close.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
    Since this is semi-anonymous, I'll dare to say gender studies.
    - kentm 4y ago
      That tends to be the common answer I hear, but I usually don't hear why its fake. What makes gender studies fake or unserious?
      - Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
        They're ideologically driven. Not so much a field of study as an agenda. Sometimes, when going through academic records of people from certain countries, I see their grades in courses like "Theory and Practice of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" or "Islamic Faith", gender students looks to me like a Western equivalent of those.
      - Aunche 4y ago
        My (admittedly uninformed) impression of contemporary gender studies is that so long as you reach them conclusion that X gender is a victim (where X isn't cis men), it matters very little what path you take to get there. This is how an obviously joke study [1] got accepted in a relatively prestigious gender studies journal. [1] http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/dog_park.pdf http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/dog_park.pdf
        uoaei 4y ago
        It demonstrates a grave lack of faith in humanity writ large to imagine that such a description can be representative of any distinguished academic tradition.
        Aunche 4y ago
        I'm not saying that gender studies is useless. It has obviously produced many valuable insights in the past, and I'm sure plenty of academics produce high quality scholarship in this field to this day. My point is that it makes little effort to distinguish this high quality scholarship and complete nonsense.
  - kabouseng 4y ago
    Most of the humanities :-P
narrator 4y ago
From what I've seen, the only higher ed experience where people care a lot about grades, class rank, etc. and it's highly competitive is law school. Everywhere else in academia there is grade inflation. The reason law school has avoided this trap is because top law firms that pay very well only want the top 5% based on class rank, especially outside of maybe the top 14 law schools. The U.S news law school rankings hold a lot of weight. They include statistics for how many of their students place at top law firms. If they grade inflate and lose credibility with these top law firms as to the grades being indicative of the quality of their students, top law firms will stop hiring from those schools, and their rankings will collapse. Of course, if you got a C in law school, that's a bad grade. In fact, you can flunk out if your grades go below a B-. Also, classes are graded on a strict curve. The teacher can only give out a certain number of A+s.
dahfizz 4y ago
Many schools are removing their "gifted" programs because the idea of unequal outcomes is uncomfortable. https://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickhess/2021/12/06/gifted-education-is-under-attack/?sh=b485a5550ee4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickhess/2021/12/06/gifted...

nlavezzo 4y ago

I think it's probably earlier (elementary, middle) schools that just don't provide opportunity for kids that are very advanced to pursue materials that are actually challenging or interesting to them.

molsongolden 4y ago

I assumed the parent meant K-12 schools (in the USA) cutting gifted and talented programs. The subject of ending tracking in schools and defunding programs for high performing students has been popping up on HN every 6mo or so.

pirate787 4y ago

It's not just grade inflation, it is watering down the curriculum and creating fake degrees in unserious academic areas.

kentm 4y ago
Which degrees are fake and/or in unserious academic areas?
- nerdponx 4y ago
  My own undergraduate degree program was well known among students as a relatively easy major for people who wanted good grades and didn't want to work too hard. There was an honors track for the people who wanted to work harder. I'm not sure if that was the intention, but that's certainly how it worked out.
  - kentm 4y ago
    Which degree was that? I'd say that one degree program being less difficult than another doesn't make it fake or unserious though. It's just natural that some topics are harder than others. There's a qualitative difference between "unserious" and "easier" I would say.
- Aunche 4y ago
  Princeton, which had been previously known for grade deflation, removed the requirement to study a classical language (Latin and Ancient Greek) as part of their classics major in able to make the field more accessible to people of color. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-...
  - kentm 4y ago
    Sorry, I was specifically asking about fake or unserious degrees, so its not really in line with what I was discussing. However, I would question whether removing Latin or Ancient Greek as a requirement meaningfully lowers the quality of education. I'm not privy to all criteria considered when making that decision, but it seems reasonable on the face of it to me -- removing unneeded requirements that may be a barrier to learning.
    - User23 4y ago
      In what world is being able to read the material unneeded? Latin may not be a requirement for whatever Grievance Studies, but it certainly is necessary if you want to study Virgil.
      - uoaei 4y ago
        All this hemming and hawing is still irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
    - chaxor 4y ago
      Removing requirements on the basis that they don't increase the quality of education does indeed sound reasonable, but doing it due to the color of skin would be the wrong reason to enact a policy. Racism is what we're fighting against, not trying to make policies enabling it.
    - Aunche 4y ago
      If you're studying history, you should be reading primary sources. Translations are a useful tool, but everyone makes mistakes and has their own biases, so your scholarship is compromised of you rely on them. The only jobs relevant to a classics major are Latin teachers and college professors. Obviously, you can't do the former without learning Latin. Professorships are already incredibly competitive in classics, so you'd be a lot less competitive without language proficiency. I don't think the degree is quite "fake" yet, but it's definitely getting close.
- Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
  Since this is semi-anonymous, I'll dare to say gender studies.
  - kentm 4y ago
    That tends to be the common answer I hear, but I usually don't hear why its fake. What makes gender studies fake or unserious?
    - Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
      They're ideologically driven. Not so much a field of study as an agenda. Sometimes, when going through academic records of people from certain countries, I see their grades in courses like "Theory and Practice of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" or "Islamic Faith", gender students looks to me like a Western equivalent of those.
    - Aunche 4y ago
      My (admittedly uninformed) impression of contemporary gender studies is that so long as you reach them conclusion that X gender is a victim (where X isn't cis men), it matters very little what path you take to get there. This is how an obviously joke study [1] got accepted in a relatively prestigious gender studies journal. [1] http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/dog_park.pdf http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/dog_park.pdf
      - uoaei 4y ago
        It demonstrates a grave lack of faith in humanity writ large to imagine that such a description can be representative of any distinguished academic tradition.
        Aunche 4y ago
        I'm not saying that gender studies is useless. It has obviously produced many valuable insights in the past, and I'm sure plenty of academics produce high quality scholarship in this field to this day. My point is that it makes little effort to distinguish this high quality scholarship and complete nonsense.
- kabouseng 4y ago
  Most of the humanities :-P

narrator 4y ago

From what I've seen, the only higher ed experience where people care a lot about grades, class rank, etc. and it's highly competitive is law school. Everywhere else in academia there is grade inflation. The reason law school has avoided this trap is because top law firms that pay very well only want the top 5% based on class rank, especially outside of maybe the top 14 law schools. The U.S news law school rankings hold a lot of weight. They include statistics for how many of their students place at top law firms. If they grade inflate and lose credibility with these top law firms as to the grades being indicative of the quality of their students, top law firms will stop hiring from those schools, and their rankings will collapse. Of course, if you got a C in law school, that's a bad grade. In fact, you can flunk out if your grades go below a B-. Also, classes are graded on a strict curve. The teacher can only give out a certain number of A+s.

dahfizz 4y ago

Many schools are removing their "gifted" programs because the idea of unequal outcomes is uncomfortable. https://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickhess/2021/12/06/gifted-education-is-under-attack/?sh=b485a5550ee4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickhess/2021/12/06/gifted...