6 ms·

It's also a sign of the times that schools have realized it's much easier (and cheaper) to create student outcome equity by preventing exceptional success than

by causi 4y ago

It's also a sign of the times that schools have realized it's much easier (and cheaper) to create student outcome equity by preventing exceptional success than by preventing failure.

nerdponx 4y ago
Which universities engage in preventing exceptional success? Even with grade inflation, it's usually pretty easy to tell when someone is exceptionally capable/intelligent/successful compared to their peers at the same institution. And the problem of grade inflation is more about universities competing for prestige (and keeping wealthy donor/legacy families happy) than about creating outcome equity.
- nlavezzo 4y ago
  I think it's probably earlier (elementary, middle) schools that just don't provide opportunity for kids that are very advanced to pursue materials that are actually challenging or interesting to them.
- molsongolden 4y ago
  I assumed the parent meant K-12 schools (in the USA) cutting gifted and talented programs. The subject of ending tracking in schools and defunding programs for high performing students has been popping up on HN every 6mo or so.
- pirate787 4y ago
  It's not just grade inflation, it is watering down the curriculum and creating fake degrees in unserious academic areas.
  - kentm 4y ago
    Which degrees are fake and/or in unserious academic areas?
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      My own undergraduate degree program was well known among students as a relatively easy major for people who wanted good grades and didn't want to work too hard. There was an honors track for the people who wanted to work harder. I'm not sure if that was the intention, but that's certainly how it worked out.
      - kentm 4y ago
        Which degree was that? I'd say that one degree program being less difficult than another doesn't make it fake or unserious though. It's just natural that some topics are harder than others. There's a qualitative difference between "unserious" and "easier" I would say.
    - Aunche 4y ago
      Princeton, which had been previously known for grade deflation, removed the requirement to study a classical language (Latin and Ancient Greek) as part of their classics major in able to make the field more accessible to people of color. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-...
      - kentm 4y ago
        Sorry, I was specifically asking about fake or unserious degrees, so its not really in line with what I was discussing. However, I would question whether removing Latin or Ancient Greek as a requirement meaningfully lowers the quality of education. I'm not privy to all criteria considered when making that decision, but it seems reasonable on the face of it to me -- removing unneeded requirements that may be a barrier to learning.
        User23 4y ago
        In what world is being able to read the material unneeded? Latin may not be a requirement for whatever Grievance Studies, but it certainly is necessary if you want to study Virgil.
- narrator 4y ago
  From what I've seen, the only higher ed experience where people care a lot about grades, class rank, etc. and it's highly competitive is law school. Everywhere else in academia there is grade inflation. The reason law school has avoided this trap is because top law firms that pay very well only want the top 5% based on class rank, especially outside of maybe the top 14 law schools. The U.S news law school rankings hold a lot of weight. They include statistics for how many of their students place at top law firms. If they grade inflate and lose credibility with these top law firms as to the grades being indicative of the quality of their students, top law firms will stop hiring from those schools, and their rankings will collapse. Of course, if you got a C in law school, that's a bad grade. In fact, you can flunk out if your grades go below a B-. Also, classes are graded on a strict curve. The teacher can only give out a certain number of A+s.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  Many schools are removing their "gifted" programs because the idea of unequal outcomes is uncomfortable. https://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickhess/2021/12/06/gifted-education-is-under-attack/?sh=b485a5550ee4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickhess/2021/12/06/gifted...
Akronymus 4y ago
Despite what many think, gifted kids are actually special needs as well. Not being challenged enough directly leads to a lack of learning to learn. And that in turn leads to hitting a brick wall at some point. I have now attempted a few times to finish my higher education, always bounced HARD as I lack the mental facilities needed to deal with the frustration/commitment of actually having to learn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUjYy4Ksy1E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUjYy4Ksy1E
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Yep, this is a big deal in gifted ed. "Twice exceptional" (gifted + very ADHD, to pick a common one) as they put it, is frequently encountered. Huge break-downs, depression, and disengagement when, eventually, the student has to actually start trying (which they may never have had to do before, at all, for potentially a decade or more of formal education) are common. Total failure to develop any kind of study habits is common, because, up to a point, they were never needed. Social problems due to having a brain, mental skills, language abilities, and knowledge, that are about half 7-year-old and half 25-year-old, are common (if not due to outright autism—see again, "twice exceptional").
  - aaroninsf 4y ago
    It is kind of a shock to read such things are recognize exactly my own experience, thirty years too late...
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      Heh, yeah, when I found out this stuff is basically Gifted Education 101 these days because it's so common, I was like "wow, you mean it wasn't just me?!" The field seems to have gotten a lot better at trying to fill in gaps and get ahead of traps and pitfalls, rather than just providing fun supplemental material, which was pretty much all they did back when I was in gifted programs.
chaxor 4y ago
Importantly, you have to simultaneously pull out of submitting information for ranking or metrics on your university. Make up some reason that sounds nice for the politics of today such that you don't have to confront the truth that your university's performance has dropped substantially due to new policies you have adopted. Most of the ivy league schools are now doing this simply because they are dropping the most, and hoping that other universities will follow them in dropping out (they typically do).

by causi 4y ago

It's also a sign of the times that schools have realized it's much easier (and cheaper) to create student outcome equity by preventing exceptional success than by preventing failure.

nerdponx 4y ago

Which universities engage in preventing exceptional success? Even with grade inflation, it's usually pretty easy to tell when someone is exceptionally capable/intelligent/successful compared to their peers at the same institution. And the problem of grade inflation is more about universities competing for prestige (and keeping wealthy donor/legacy families happy) than about creating outcome equity.

nlavezzo 4y ago
I think it's probably earlier (elementary, middle) schools that just don't provide opportunity for kids that are very advanced to pursue materials that are actually challenging or interesting to them.
molsongolden 4y ago
I assumed the parent meant K-12 schools (in the USA) cutting gifted and talented programs. The subject of ending tracking in schools and defunding programs for high performing students has been popping up on HN every 6mo or so.
pirate787 4y ago
It's not just grade inflation, it is watering down the curriculum and creating fake degrees in unserious academic areas.
- kentm 4y ago
  Which degrees are fake and/or in unserious academic areas?
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    My own undergraduate degree program was well known among students as a relatively easy major for people who wanted good grades and didn't want to work too hard. There was an honors track for the people who wanted to work harder. I'm not sure if that was the intention, but that's certainly how it worked out.
    - kentm 4y ago
      Which degree was that? I'd say that one degree program being less difficult than another doesn't make it fake or unserious though. It's just natural that some topics are harder than others. There's a qualitative difference between "unserious" and "easier" I would say.
  - Aunche 4y ago
    Princeton, which had been previously known for grade deflation, removed the requirement to study a classical language (Latin and Ancient Greek) as part of their classics major in able to make the field more accessible to people of color. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-...
    - kentm 4y ago
      Sorry, I was specifically asking about fake or unserious degrees, so its not really in line with what I was discussing. However, I would question whether removing Latin or Ancient Greek as a requirement meaningfully lowers the quality of education. I'm not privy to all criteria considered when making that decision, but it seems reasonable on the face of it to me -- removing unneeded requirements that may be a barrier to learning.
      - User23 4y ago
        In what world is being able to read the material unneeded? Latin may not be a requirement for whatever Grievance Studies, but it certainly is necessary if you want to study Virgil.
narrator 4y ago
From what I've seen, the only higher ed experience where people care a lot about grades, class rank, etc. and it's highly competitive is law school. Everywhere else in academia there is grade inflation. The reason law school has avoided this trap is because top law firms that pay very well only want the top 5% based on class rank, especially outside of maybe the top 14 law schools. The U.S news law school rankings hold a lot of weight. They include statistics for how many of their students place at top law firms. If they grade inflate and lose credibility with these top law firms as to the grades being indicative of the quality of their students, top law firms will stop hiring from those schools, and their rankings will collapse. Of course, if you got a C in law school, that's a bad grade. In fact, you can flunk out if your grades go below a B-. Also, classes are graded on a strict curve. The teacher can only give out a certain number of A+s.
dahfizz 4y ago
Many schools are removing their "gifted" programs because the idea of unequal outcomes is uncomfortable. https://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickhess/2021/12/06/gifted-education-is-under-attack/?sh=b485a5550ee4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickhess/2021/12/06/gifted...

Akronymus 4y ago

Despite what many think, gifted kids are actually special needs as well. Not being challenged enough directly leads to a lack of learning to learn. And that in turn leads to hitting a brick wall at some point. I have now attempted a few times to finish my higher education, always bounced HARD as I lack the mental facilities needed to deal with the frustration/commitment of actually having to learn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUjYy4Ksy1E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUjYy4Ksy1E

yamtaddle 4y ago
Yep, this is a big deal in gifted ed. "Twice exceptional" (gifted + very ADHD, to pick a common one) as they put it, is frequently encountered. Huge break-downs, depression, and disengagement when, eventually, the student has to actually start trying (which they may never have had to do before, at all, for potentially a decade or more of formal education) are common. Total failure to develop any kind of study habits is common, because, up to a point, they were never needed. Social problems due to having a brain, mental skills, language abilities, and knowledge, that are about half 7-year-old and half 25-year-old, are common (if not due to outright autism—see again, "twice exceptional").
- aaroninsf 4y ago
  It is kind of a shock to read such things are recognize exactly my own experience, thirty years too late...
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Heh, yeah, when I found out this stuff is basically Gifted Education 101 these days because it's so common, I was like "wow, you mean it wasn't just me?!" The field seems to have gotten a lot better at trying to fill in gaps and get ahead of traps and pitfalls, rather than just providing fun supplemental material, which was pretty much all they did back when I was in gifted programs.

chaxor 4y ago

Importantly, you have to simultaneously pull out of submitting information for ranking or metrics on your university. Make up some reason that sounds nice for the politics of today such that you don't have to confront the truth that your university's performance has dropped substantially due to new policies you have adopted. Most of the ivy league schools are now doing this simply because they are dropping the most, and hoping that other universities will follow them in dropping out (they typically do).