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Well, for credible info: >> In addition, this is an F35A vs Gripen E, so the Gripen has a better STOL capability, likely better radar (rotating GaN), more matur

Well, for credible info: >> In addition, this is an F35A vs Gripen E, so the Gripen has a better STOL capability, likely better radar (rotating GaN), more mature avionics link, supercruise, similar RCS (apart from frontal, it's likely to be smaller, red flag exercises hinted that they were not really detectable) and faster software updates. STOL capabilities https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2020/august/gripen-designed-for-dispersed-air-basing-system https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2020/august/gripen-des... Radar, note that's I'd said it's an estimate, based on the fact that it's the first GaN radar and has a wider FOV https://www.saab.com/markets/india/gripen-for-india/technology/how-gripen-es-aesa-radar-gets-a-large-field-of-view https://www.saab.com/markets/india/gripen-for-india/technolo... More mature here means has been around longer in one from or another, since the Viggen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen Supercruise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercruise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercruise RCS is an overall estimate, certainly not from the front as the F35 is designed as a strike fighter, but with a smaller plane, the RCS may well be similar elsewhere https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/01/07/gripen/ https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/01/07/gripen/ Fast software updates https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2021/january/gripen-software-design-built-for-future https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2021/january/gripen-so... Anyway, this is missing the point, which that it's difficult to trust a platform that you don't have the source code to, have to use a parts management system that phones home, and a system that uploads flight data back home. Ownership in this case means having the ability to independently run the aircraft without reliance on other countries' benevolence. In that capacity, whether your adversary is Russia, or some other country is irrelevant.

gggggg5 4y ago
Interesting choice to mostly rely on SAAB marketing materials in an effort to make the case that the Gripen E is better. >STOL capabilities https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2020/august/gripen-des https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2020/august/gripen-des... Who really cares about STOL capabilities of the Gripen? Unless you're on a small island, you can build longer runways. >Radar, note that's I'd said it's an estimate, based on the fact that it's the first GaN radar and has a wider FOV https://www.saab.com/markets/india/gripen-for-india/technolo https://www.saab.com/markets/india/gripen-for-india/technolo... Gripen E's radar being better than that of the F-35 is certainly an unique take. The AN/APG-81 has a 71.4% bigger aperture than the ES-05. While the ES-05 does benefit from reduced power consumption due to the GaN transistors, it still has significantly lower peak output power than the AN/APG-81. Wider FOV is nice, but the AN/APG-81 can see further. AN/APG-81 is the better radar out of the two, and also offers better EW capabilities than the ES-05. >More mature here means has been around longer in one from or another, since the Viggen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen I believe the word you're looking for is "older", even though "more mature" sounds nicer. >Supercruise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercruise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercruise The Gripen E can only supercruise according to SAABs very own original definition of "supercruise", and so far there's been no indication that it can do so while carrying weapons. >RCS is an overall estimate, certainly not from the front as the F35 is designed as a strike fighter, but with a smaller plane, the RCS may well be similar elsewhere https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/01/07/gripen/ https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/01/07/gripen/ If Gripen was as stealthy as you like to suggest, SAAB would be shouting it from the rooftops. Yet, they aren't. >Fast software updates https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2021/january/gripen-so https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2021/january/gripen-so... Meaningless marketing speak. Anyway, > Ownership in this case means having the ability to independently run the aircraft without reliance on other countries' benevolence. Good luck operating Gripens without relying on the benevolence of the US, UK and Sweden.
some_random 4y ago
I could grab a ton of Lockheed Martin sales propaganda and drop it in as a "rebuttal" but that's obviously a waste of time. STOL is super useful if you need it but irrelevant if you have long runways, and since the F-35B wasn't in the running we can assume Finland isn't putting a ton of weight on that. The Gripen's software is mature in the same way Windows 98 is, maybe it's a joy to work with I wouldn't know and if you knew you wouldn't be able to say. But the real issue is RCS, that information is super classified. You can throw the geometry into a simulator and guess at material properties but you will never have enough information to actually say one stealth fighter is more stealthy than another. As for the ownership question, why does it matter to Finland that have complete control over their aircraft? Why do they need to prevent flight data from being set back to the US? Most importantly, why do they need to be able to independently operate the aircraft? It's only purpose is to fight Russians, and now that they're joining NATO they would be fighting Russians alongside the US.

gggggg5 4y ago

Interesting choice to mostly rely on SAAB marketing materials in an effort to make the case that the Gripen E is better. >STOL capabilities https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2020/august/gripen-des https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2020/august/gripen-des... Who really cares about STOL capabilities of the Gripen? Unless you're on a small island, you can build longer runways. >Radar, note that's I'd said it's an estimate, based on the fact that it's the first GaN radar and has a wider FOV https://www.saab.com/markets/india/gripen-for-india/technolo https://www.saab.com/markets/india/gripen-for-india/technolo... Gripen E's radar being better than that of the F-35 is certainly an unique take. The AN/APG-81 has a 71.4% bigger aperture than the ES-05. While the ES-05 does benefit from reduced power consumption due to the GaN transistors, it still has significantly lower peak output power than the AN/APG-81. Wider FOV is nice, but the AN/APG-81 can see further. AN/APG-81 is the better radar out of the two, and also offers better EW capabilities than the ES-05. >More mature here means has been around longer in one from or another, since the Viggen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen I believe the word you're looking for is "older", even though "more mature" sounds nicer. >Supercruise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercruise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercruise The Gripen E can only supercruise according to SAABs very own original definition of "supercruise", and so far there's been no indication that it can do so while carrying weapons. >RCS is an overall estimate, certainly not from the front as the F35 is designed as a strike fighter, but with a smaller plane, the RCS may well be similar elsewhere https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/01/07/gripen/ https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/01/07/gripen/ If Gripen was as stealthy as you like to suggest, SAAB would be shouting it from the rooftops. Yet, they aren't. >Fast software updates https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2021/january/gripen-so https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2021/january/gripen-so... Meaningless marketing speak. Anyway, > Ownership in this case means having the ability to independently run the aircraft without reliance on other countries' benevolence. Good luck operating Gripens without relying on the benevolence of the US, UK and Sweden.

some_random 4y ago

I could grab a ton of Lockheed Martin sales propaganda and drop it in as a "rebuttal" but that's obviously a waste of time. STOL is super useful if you need it but irrelevant if you have long runways, and since the F-35B wasn't in the running we can assume Finland isn't putting a ton of weight on that. The Gripen's software is mature in the same way Windows 98 is, maybe it's a joy to work with I wouldn't know and if you knew you wouldn't be able to say. But the real issue is RCS, that information is super classified. You can throw the geometry into a simulator and guess at material properties but you will never have enough information to actually say one stealth fighter is more stealthy than another. As for the ownership question, why does it matter to Finland that have complete control over their aircraft? Why do they need to prevent flight data from being set back to the US? Most importantly, why do they need to be able to independently operate the aircraft? It's only purpose is to fight Russians, and now that they're joining NATO they would be fighting Russians alongside the US.