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Conservatism and traditional values can't be counter-culture since our society is based on them. It will never be counter-anything except progress.

by satao 4y ago

GalenErso 4y ago
[flagged]
- satao 4y ago
  Society didn't use to be "conservative". Like, the romans and the greeks were a lot more sexually free than we are right now. What they also had in their time is conservative people, as in, people that were against the changes in the society they were living in (like accepting Christianism during the Roman Empire, etc). Being conservative can't be counter-culture because by definition it is preseving the CURRENT culture (which is not the "woke" one, even if boomers like to think different. All the people with power are conservatives). Being downvoted in HN doesn't mean anything, same as Twitter and Reddit. You can be "cancelled" in Twitter and still sell out the Madison Square Garden, like Louis CK. The real power is outside the social media, and that part is definitely conservative.
  - gbN025tt2Z1E2E4 4y ago
    > Like, the romans and the greeks were a lot more sexually free than we are right now. I wouldn't recommend using collapsed civilizations as the beacon for what's good and right for a healthy and well-functioning society.
    - satao 4y ago
      I didn’t use any adjectives to describe their society. Only commented that you can’t think that “conservatism” is always about believing in God, in monogamy, etc.
    - Ancapistani 4y ago
      Given that no human society seems to last forever, that sounds like a good way to run out of acceptable ways to build one.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    > Like, the romans and the greeks were a lot more sexually free than we are right now. Not really, unless maybe we count their elites' exploitation of enslaved folks as a kind of "sexual freedom" but that's not something we would ever want to endorse. We know from ancient sources that their sexual behavior was highly constrained otherwise, and people who transgressed prevailing norms were widely seen as weak and lacking in self-control.
- mikrl 4y ago
  Some of those look straight out of the NSDAP which itself went from countercultural, to mainstream, to destroyed in a hail of fire and steel.
- baryphonic 4y ago
  > Someone expressing the above sentiments in a non-sarcastic way anywhere on HN or Reddit would be downvoted to hell. You'd be surprised. The only comments I get downvoted to Hell on are either explicitly anto-communist or are just dumb comments. Even comments where I evangelize about God are typically well received, with maybe a few triggered atheists in the replies. If I lead with facts cutting against Bay Area Received Values narrative or highlight some of the inconsistencies of BARV themselves, I usually get quite a few upvotes. > And I didn't even dare venture into the racial views of conservatives. What views are these? The debate seems to be between those who think blacks, other non-whites and immigrants are typically inherently socially conservative; and those who believe these minority groups are irrevocably allied with the Democrat machine. A typical conservative view today is that non-whites have agency just as much as whites, but face constraints such as bad government programs and social pressures to conform. Ben Carson, for example, used to be hailed as a hero, a regular staple of Black History Month. But when he "came out" as a conservative, he's been belittled and seen his stature crumble, even to the point of schools removing his name.[0] The mainstream can't tolerate a likable conservative or a non-white one, and has a lot of funny ideas about what conservatives in particular think. Most of it is projection based on a deranged (but consistent!) interpretation of Trump's presidency. [0] https://www.outkick.com/detroit-school-board-to-remove-dr-ben-carsons-name-from-public-school-over-his-political-opinions/ https://www.outkick.com/detroit-school-board-to-remove-dr-be...
- Kye 4y ago
  This in itself was the counterculture within conservatism. It used to be much more diverse before the goofball contingent took over. Uncle Phil on Fresh Prince was a conservative, and he would throw someone out of his house for this garbage. That was as recent as the 90s.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  > I believe in God. I'm sure there are communities where stating this would be controversial, but the US public has never elected an openly atheist president. It's ridiculous to claim that believing in God is somehow countercultural.
thewrongthinker 4y ago
In a sense I agree with you. What the person you are responding to is trying to say, I assume, is the new status quo is liberalism. As in lgbt, blm, van life, cannabis culture, casual dating, multiculturalism, secularism, etc. I labelled the above idea space “liberalism” but I’m not convinced it’s the right term. I am just lacking a better one. In any case, if we assume the to be the status quo, which I think we mostly can, people trying to preserve these values and bolster them are conservative. They enjoy the status quo, wish to keep it and wish to reinforce it. They wish to prevent progress ( as in movement ) towards a different direction. There is also another idea space, generally associated with christian identity, belief in God, the existence of two biological sexes with clear roles to fulfil, european heritage, abortion is murder, sex strictly within marriage, no homosexuality, gun rights, etc This would be called conservatism. But, as in the “liberalism” mentioned above, it’s not really the best term. If we just take it as an idea space and assume liberalism to be the status quo, this would definitely be a counter culture. It dislikes the current status quo, wishes to undermine it and shift it in a different direction. And, in this sense, I agree with the person you responded too. “Conservative” is the new counter culture.
- satao 4y ago
  You’re mistaken if you think “liberalism” is the status quo. It might be in the internet, but real life is not the same as Twitter. Just look at the push against abortion, or the massive incarcerated population, or the constant killing of poor people by the police. Or the raising of the interest rate to freeze salaries in detriment of bigger unemployment which won’t target the rich people? Honestly saying that being conservative is a counter-culture just shows how alienated conservatives are.
- zzo38computer 4y ago
  > In any case, if we assume the to be the status quo, which I think we mostly can, people trying to preserve these values and bolster them are conservative. They enjoy the status quo, wish to keep it and wish to reinforce it. They wish to prevent progress ( as in movement ) towards a different direction. It is true, but there is not only one or two directions, and it must be necessary to consider that there is no only one or two directions. People can believe in God or not as they wish, and might or might not be Christian (and there is many different Christians anyways, as well as many different non-Christians, and you need not only necessarily one religion, also). Either way can result people do good things and bad things. Furthermore, "God exist" is not even very clearly defined. They shouldn't shame people for believe in God, although to say that it is right or wrong to believe in God can be mistaken because many people fail to consider that it is not really well defined. Although two biological sexes do have clear roles to fulfil (specifically, mother vs father), that is a simplification and also is sometimes expanded too much (especially in the past, more often than today). That fails to consider intersex, and also people who do things differently from each other, you can do such things which are not part of biological sex. Some people have some European heritage but not necessarily all. However, "European" is not very specific compared with e.g. "Italian", I think. Homosexuality is not such a bad thing and even if you do not like it, it is not what should be illegal. (But, they should not force you to like it or to hate it.) About gun rights, I think that you should need right to have weapons (especially unpowered and improvised weapons, rather than guns, but guns too) and other devices (including clothing, pencil/paper for writing, etc), and the right to not have weapons and other devices (including clothing) in case you do not want it, but that they should not just sell guns to everyone without proper safety training, etc. Proper safety training is important. However, if you make up your own weapons and other devices then you can do that; the government should not get in the way of everything. However, such a thing should not mean that you can just shoot everyone or bring guns everywhere; the law would still need to prevent against such a thing, which they already do anyways. There are some Canadian laws relating to guns. Some of these things seems like good ideas but should not be mandatory, and are often more restrictive than they should be. Furthermore, even if guns are legal should not mean that they should be encouraged. Use of weapons should normally be discouraged, not encouraged. (I do not want any guns and I do not like guns, but that is just my opinion.) Too often they say they either want gun rights or gun restrictions, either yes or no, and fail to consider a more nuanced possibility. Cannabis, also, they fail to consider a more nuanced possibility. Now, smoking marijuana is legal, and I also do not think they should make the drugs illegal, but unfortunately they can still harm the air outside, and make smell even inside someone else's house right next to it too, so there still need to be the restriction of that. But, usually the people just consider yes or no instead of the more complicated possibility like I have described. Abortion also is complicated, often both side they fail to consider the nuance. Ideally, I think it should be something to be avoided (it is better to start to not be pregnant, if possible), but conditions are not ideal and never are ideal. If it is your body then you will have the right to do with it (although you should still consider whether or not it is a good idea; just because something is or should be legal does not necessarily mean that it is a good idea), and can be self-defense from your own body (in case you would die otherwise), but the government should not make it difficult by getting in the way. And then, there are some things that neither "liberal" nor "conservative" governments tend to consider, or that both do.

Conservatism and traditional values can't be counter-culture since our society is based on them. It will never be counter-anything except progress.

by satao 4y ago

Conservatism and traditional values can't be counter-culture since our society is based on them. It will never be counter-anything except progress.

GalenErso 4y ago

[flagged]

satao 4y ago
Society didn't use to be "conservative". Like, the romans and the greeks were a lot more sexually free than we are right now. What they also had in their time is conservative people, as in, people that were against the changes in the society they were living in (like accepting Christianism during the Roman Empire, etc). Being conservative can't be counter-culture because by definition it is preseving the CURRENT culture (which is not the "woke" one, even if boomers like to think different. All the people with power are conservatives). Being downvoted in HN doesn't mean anything, same as Twitter and Reddit. You can be "cancelled" in Twitter and still sell out the Madison Square Garden, like Louis CK. The real power is outside the social media, and that part is definitely conservative.
- gbN025tt2Z1E2E4 4y ago
  > Like, the romans and the greeks were a lot more sexually free than we are right now. I wouldn't recommend using collapsed civilizations as the beacon for what's good and right for a healthy and well-functioning society.
  - satao 4y ago
    I didn’t use any adjectives to describe their society. Only commented that you can’t think that “conservatism” is always about believing in God, in monogamy, etc.
  - Ancapistani 4y ago
    Given that no human society seems to last forever, that sounds like a good way to run out of acceptable ways to build one.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > Like, the romans and the greeks were a lot more sexually free than we are right now. Not really, unless maybe we count their elites' exploitation of enslaved folks as a kind of "sexual freedom" but that's not something we would ever want to endorse. We know from ancient sources that their sexual behavior was highly constrained otherwise, and people who transgressed prevailing norms were widely seen as weak and lacking in self-control.
mikrl 4y ago
Some of those look straight out of the NSDAP which itself went from countercultural, to mainstream, to destroyed in a hail of fire and steel.
baryphonic 4y ago
> Someone expressing the above sentiments in a non-sarcastic way anywhere on HN or Reddit would be downvoted to hell. You'd be surprised. The only comments I get downvoted to Hell on are either explicitly anto-communist or are just dumb comments. Even comments where I evangelize about God are typically well received, with maybe a few triggered atheists in the replies. If I lead with facts cutting against Bay Area Received Values narrative or highlight some of the inconsistencies of BARV themselves, I usually get quite a few upvotes. > And I didn't even dare venture into the racial views of conservatives. What views are these? The debate seems to be between those who think blacks, other non-whites and immigrants are typically inherently socially conservative; and those who believe these minority groups are irrevocably allied with the Democrat machine. A typical conservative view today is that non-whites have agency just as much as whites, but face constraints such as bad government programs and social pressures to conform. Ben Carson, for example, used to be hailed as a hero, a regular staple of Black History Month. But when he "came out" as a conservative, he's been belittled and seen his stature crumble, even to the point of schools removing his name.[0] The mainstream can't tolerate a likable conservative or a non-white one, and has a lot of funny ideas about what conservatives in particular think. Most of it is projection based on a deranged (but consistent!) interpretation of Trump's presidency. [0] https://www.outkick.com/detroit-school-board-to-remove-dr-ben-carsons-name-from-public-school-over-his-political-opinions/ https://www.outkick.com/detroit-school-board-to-remove-dr-be...
Kye 4y ago
This in itself was the counterculture within conservatism. It used to be much more diverse before the goofball contingent took over. Uncle Phil on Fresh Prince was a conservative, and he would throw someone out of his house for this garbage. That was as recent as the 90s.
AlexandrB 4y ago
> I believe in God. I'm sure there are communities where stating this would be controversial, but the US public has never elected an openly atheist president. It's ridiculous to claim that believing in God is somehow countercultural.

thewrongthinker 4y ago

In a sense I agree with you. What the person you are responding to is trying to say, I assume, is the new status quo is liberalism. As in lgbt, blm, van life, cannabis culture, casual dating, multiculturalism, secularism, etc. I labelled the above idea space “liberalism” but I’m not convinced it’s the right term. I am just lacking a better one. In any case, if we assume the to be the status quo, which I think we mostly can, people trying to preserve these values and bolster them are conservative. They enjoy the status quo, wish to keep it and wish to reinforce it. They wish to prevent progress ( as in movement ) towards a different direction. There is also another idea space, generally associated with christian identity, belief in God, the existence of two biological sexes with clear roles to fulfil, european heritage, abortion is murder, sex strictly within marriage, no homosexuality, gun rights, etc This would be called conservatism. But, as in the “liberalism” mentioned above, it’s not really the best term. If we just take it as an idea space and assume liberalism to be the status quo, this would definitely be a counter culture. It dislikes the current status quo, wishes to undermine it and shift it in a different direction. And, in this sense, I agree with the person you responded too. “Conservative” is the new counter culture.

satao 4y ago
You’re mistaken if you think “liberalism” is the status quo. It might be in the internet, but real life is not the same as Twitter. Just look at the push against abortion, or the massive incarcerated population, or the constant killing of poor people by the police. Or the raising of the interest rate to freeze salaries in detriment of bigger unemployment which won’t target the rich people? Honestly saying that being conservative is a counter-culture just shows how alienated conservatives are.
zzo38computer 4y ago
> In any case, if we assume the to be the status quo, which I think we mostly can, people trying to preserve these values and bolster them are conservative. They enjoy the status quo, wish to keep it and wish to reinforce it. They wish to prevent progress ( as in movement ) towards a different direction. It is true, but there is not only one or two directions, and it must be necessary to consider that there is no only one or two directions. People can believe in God or not as they wish, and might or might not be Christian (and there is many different Christians anyways, as well as many different non-Christians, and you need not only necessarily one religion, also). Either way can result people do good things and bad things. Furthermore, "God exist" is not even very clearly defined. They shouldn't shame people for believe in God, although to say that it is right or wrong to believe in God can be mistaken because many people fail to consider that it is not really well defined. Although two biological sexes do have clear roles to fulfil (specifically, mother vs father), that is a simplification and also is sometimes expanded too much (especially in the past, more often than today). That fails to consider intersex, and also people who do things differently from each other, you can do such things which are not part of biological sex. Some people have some European heritage but not necessarily all. However, "European" is not very specific compared with e.g. "Italian", I think. Homosexuality is not such a bad thing and even if you do not like it, it is not what should be illegal. (But, they should not force you to like it or to hate it.) About gun rights, I think that you should need right to have weapons (especially unpowered and improvised weapons, rather than guns, but guns too) and other devices (including clothing, pencil/paper for writing, etc), and the right to not have weapons and other devices (including clothing) in case you do not want it, but that they should not just sell guns to everyone without proper safety training, etc. Proper safety training is important. However, if you make up your own weapons and other devices then you can do that; the government should not get in the way of everything. However, such a thing should not mean that you can just shoot everyone or bring guns everywhere; the law would still need to prevent against such a thing, which they already do anyways. There are some Canadian laws relating to guns. Some of these things seems like good ideas but should not be mandatory, and are often more restrictive than they should be. Furthermore, even if guns are legal should not mean that they should be encouraged. Use of weapons should normally be discouraged, not encouraged. (I do not want any guns and I do not like guns, but that is just my opinion.) Too often they say they either want gun rights or gun restrictions, either yes or no, and fail to consider a more nuanced possibility. Cannabis, also, they fail to consider a more nuanced possibility. Now, smoking marijuana is legal, and I also do not think they should make the drugs illegal, but unfortunately they can still harm the air outside, and make smell even inside someone else's house right next to it too, so there still need to be the restriction of that. But, usually the people just consider yes or no instead of the more complicated possibility like I have described. Abortion also is complicated, often both side they fail to consider the nuance. Ideally, I think it should be something to be avoided (it is better to start to not be pregnant, if possible), but conditions are not ideal and never are ideal. If it is your body then you will have the right to do with it (although you should still consider whether or not it is a good idea; just because something is or should be legal does not necessarily mean that it is a good idea), and can be self-defense from your own body (in case you would die otherwise), but the government should not make it difficult by getting in the way. And then, there are some things that neither "liberal" nor "conservative" governments tend to consider, or that both do.