4 ms·

> There is a huge non-obvious culture of LQBTQIA Take a look at Twitter on pride month, even Raytheon changes their logo to a rainbow version. That stuff is so

> There is a huge non-obvious culture of LQBTQIA Take a look at Twitter on pride month, even Raytheon changes their logo to a rainbow version. That stuff is so mainstream it hurts. It's a counterculture in Saudi Arabia where the logos don't change and they throw gay people off of buildings, but in the US/Europe it's part of the dominant culture.

arisu 4y ago
Non-obvious means the things that you dont understand and/or see. You make it sound like a bad thing. I'm happy we don't throw people off buildings as often.
notnaut 4y ago
There is the Walmartized rainbow culture that you’re talking about and then there’s the meat and potatoes queer culture that is and will always be counterculture for as long as human reproduction remains sexually binary. There is still a substantial amount of “queerness” that you don’t see on TV. Primary culture loves to pull from counterculture after the morsel has been thoroughly sanitized and monetized.
- anon223345 4y ago
  The thing is though, queerness is now “cool” so it’s not counter culture
  - ivanbakel 4y ago
    Countercultures have always been "cool" - the rejection of the dominant culture is part of their cool factor. Some of the most memorable aspects of recent Western cultural history are counter-cultural: hippies, punks, slackers. A counterculture isn't defined by whether or not it's considered cool, but by whether or not it is actively participated in and shared among the majority of people. Queer identities may have a lot of public support (and even that's debatable), but queerness is not part of most people's lives. Western societies are still cis- and heteronormative. Queer culture is an other, not the mainstream.
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
I don't know, I think it's much more complicated. On one hand Raytheon changes their rainbow to logo for pride month, on the other hand some states are trying to ban crossdressing or force crossdressing people to register as sex offenders. And the majority of youth who are homeless are homeless because their families kicked them out for being gay/trans. I don't think it's reasonable to say that LGBTQ people are completely mainstream/acceptable or completely counterculture/unacceptable. Maybe it's more like it's mainstream to appear accepting but its counterculture to actually accept the gay/trans/crossdressers in your own life.
- jstarfish 4y ago
  > And the majority of youth who are homeless are homeless because their families kicked them out for being gay/trans. People lie about anything they can get away with. When only one side of the story is being heard, people claiming victimhood because of a singular external issue are almost always grossly misrepresenting the situation. See also: "I got fired because my boss / my car / my dog / etc."
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    IDK, I don't think the majority of children who are homeless have much incentives to lie about being gay or trans. It's still legal in some states to claim panic when killing a gay or trans person, just because they're gay/trans and it shocked you into killing them. Homeless people are rarely looked for if they're murdered, so there's less incentive for you to claim to be gay/trans because it literally targets you for murder more than you already are as a homeless person.
    - jstarfish 4y ago
      In my experience, more often than not the "homeless" kids waving the gay flag are glossing over unrelated behavioral issues on their own part. > It's still legal in some states to claim panic when killing a gay or trans person, just because they're gay/trans and it shocked you into killing them. The idea that deceiving someone into having sex with you is considered "shocking" and not "rape" astounds me. You can't induce arousal in someone, lure them into a position of vulnerability and spring surprises on them in the dark-- unless you're trying to become a martyr and add to the body count. We already had to outlaw "pozzing" since the gays couldn't be bothered to disclose minor things like positive HIV status to unsuspecting partners. Now we're supposed to be cool with "stealthing"/"surprise sex" from the trans? It seems there is a pathological dishonesty at play here. The laws should be changed-- LGBTs should be held more accountable for deceiving others. Murder has never been an acceptable response to fraud, so that needs to change too. This is not an example of sympathetic behavior on either side. I don't understand why you even brought it up.
goodpoint 4y ago
> even Raytheon changes their logo to a rainbow version And you think weapon manufacturers are sincerely concerned about discrimination and human rights in general? Mainstream culture has been co-opting countercultures since decades. There are even words like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing. Music genres like punk, rock, rap etc have been watered down in the same way. And many other things. That's the opposite of going mainstream.
- willcipriano 4y ago
  I know they don't care about it. That's the point. They don't care about it but they do it, because it's socially expected that they do it, because it's mainstream. If being green was counterculture, greenwashing would have the opposite of the intended effect.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    So co-opting something and making it truly mainstream is the same thing? Then greenwhashing is real ecology?
    - willcipriano 4y ago
      As a corporation why would you co-opt something that the public in general isn't on board for? Ask several people on the street "Should companies be more green?" and they will mostly say yes, as that is a mainstream idea. If you wanted to be counter culture you could start a company that isn't green, "We pollute ten times what our competition does!", lots of people out in the culture would be very upset, they would protest, that's what being counter to the culture is like.

arisu 4y ago

Non-obvious means the things that you dont understand and/or see. You make it sound like a bad thing. I'm happy we don't throw people off buildings as often.

notnaut 4y ago

There is the Walmartized rainbow culture that you’re talking about and then there’s the meat and potatoes queer culture that is and will always be counterculture for as long as human reproduction remains sexually binary. There is still a substantial amount of “queerness” that you don’t see on TV. Primary culture loves to pull from counterculture after the morsel has been thoroughly sanitized and monetized.

anon223345 4y ago
The thing is though, queerness is now “cool” so it’s not counter culture
- ivanbakel 4y ago
  Countercultures have always been "cool" - the rejection of the dominant culture is part of their cool factor. Some of the most memorable aspects of recent Western cultural history are counter-cultural: hippies, punks, slackers. A counterculture isn't defined by whether or not it's considered cool, but by whether or not it is actively participated in and shared among the majority of people. Queer identities may have a lot of public support (and even that's debatable), but queerness is not part of most people's lives. Western societies are still cis- and heteronormative. Queer culture is an other, not the mainstream.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

I don't know, I think it's much more complicated. On one hand Raytheon changes their rainbow to logo for pride month, on the other hand some states are trying to ban crossdressing or force crossdressing people to register as sex offenders. And the majority of youth who are homeless are homeless because their families kicked them out for being gay/trans. I don't think it's reasonable to say that LGBTQ people are completely mainstream/acceptable or completely counterculture/unacceptable. Maybe it's more like it's mainstream to appear accepting but its counterculture to actually accept the gay/trans/crossdressers in your own life.

jstarfish 4y ago
> And the majority of youth who are homeless are homeless because their families kicked them out for being gay/trans. People lie about anything they can get away with. When only one side of the story is being heard, people claiming victimhood because of a singular external issue are almost always grossly misrepresenting the situation. See also: "I got fired because my boss / my car / my dog / etc."
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  IDK, I don't think the majority of children who are homeless have much incentives to lie about being gay or trans. It's still legal in some states to claim panic when killing a gay or trans person, just because they're gay/trans and it shocked you into killing them. Homeless people are rarely looked for if they're murdered, so there's less incentive for you to claim to be gay/trans because it literally targets you for murder more than you already are as a homeless person.
  - jstarfish 4y ago
    In my experience, more often than not the "homeless" kids waving the gay flag are glossing over unrelated behavioral issues on their own part. > It's still legal in some states to claim panic when killing a gay or trans person, just because they're gay/trans and it shocked you into killing them. The idea that deceiving someone into having sex with you is considered "shocking" and not "rape" astounds me. You can't induce arousal in someone, lure them into a position of vulnerability and spring surprises on them in the dark-- unless you're trying to become a martyr and add to the body count. We already had to outlaw "pozzing" since the gays couldn't be bothered to disclose minor things like positive HIV status to unsuspecting partners. Now we're supposed to be cool with "stealthing"/"surprise sex" from the trans? It seems there is a pathological dishonesty at play here. The laws should be changed-- LGBTs should be held more accountable for deceiving others. Murder has never been an acceptable response to fraud, so that needs to change too. This is not an example of sympathetic behavior on either side. I don't understand why you even brought it up.

goodpoint 4y ago

> even Raytheon changes their logo to a rainbow version And you think weapon manufacturers are sincerely concerned about discrimination and human rights in general? Mainstream culture has been co-opting countercultures since decades. There are even words like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing. Music genres like punk, rock, rap etc have been watered down in the same way. And many other things. That's the opposite of going mainstream.

willcipriano 4y ago
I know they don't care about it. That's the point. They don't care about it but they do it, because it's socially expected that they do it, because it's mainstream. If being green was counterculture, greenwashing would have the opposite of the intended effect.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  So co-opting something and making it truly mainstream is the same thing? Then greenwhashing is real ecology?
  - willcipriano 4y ago
    As a corporation why would you co-opt something that the public in general isn't on board for? Ask several people on the street "Should companies be more green?" and they will mostly say yes, as that is a mainstream idea. If you wanted to be counter culture you could start a company that isn't green, "We pollute ten times what our competition does!", lots of people out in the culture would be very upset, they would protest, that's what being counter to the culture is like.